Morello what is your take on soraka bot lane.

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Malgana

Senior Member

02-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Then why is it the heal characters dominate instead of tank/AD kill lanes?
Since you're targeting the heal based champs with these nerfs, does that mean you're basically pushing for other supports like Janna, Ali (I know he still has a heal, but he's more well known for his CC I think.) and support Orianna to come back into the scene?

I always loved playing Janna, but I find it hard to get a team who will accept her over Sona or Soraka since they all want that sustain so badly rather than have me toss out a shield/AD steroid and some CC for a quick kill.


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FactorUnknown

Senior Member

02-09-2012

Morello Just so you hear it from someone I have full respect for almost every nerf and buff you put out there. You'll hear so much complaining abt nerfs being to heavy on a champion, just to hear that you "need to further nerf them" the next week. What you are doing is a lose-lose for you because you can't please everyone. Just remember that there are a decent amount of us our here that agree with you in most cases. Those of us that have the competitive minds of balance.


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Ginley

Senior Member

02-09-2012

Strong =/= overpowered.


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Frejas

Junior Member

02-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Then why is it the heal characters dominate instead of tank/AD kill lanes?
Because, especially in solo queue where you can't guarantee how good your partner is or coordinate well with them, a support with sustain can be useful in any situation. The biggest problem with no sustain supports is that if they ever get behind, they can't be aggressive, and they can't do much of anything. This is especially true of melee tank characters- if you're playing Leona and you're behind in the lane, and don't have items because you're giving the CS to your carry, initiating a fight just exposes you and will probably get you killed.

Nerfing characters with any sort of sustain won't actually change the situation, until they've been hit so hard they aren't worth playing. Soraka is really the only support that has very good sustain currently, which is due to her infinite mana from infuse. Sona is strong for her harass and her ult, and movement buff. Her heal is negligible- she has to spend almost her entire mana pool to equal the healing from a potion early-game, and it doesn't scale well, especially with the increased mana cost at higher ranks and the negligible AP ratio.

In essence, the issue isn't as much that supports are overly strong, but that the options are worse due to less flexibility. If you're losing your lane, initiating a fight with a character with no items is generally suicide unless you've got your jungler or mid there to help gank. At least if you've got a character with heals, you can stay in the back and keep your carry alive through harass so they can stay in lane and keep farming until your team has a chance to make something happen.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-09-2012
8 of 17 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterwcer View Post
Meta games come and go, and players can achieve the coordination needed to make these 'kill lanes' work. They may become necessary in the future, or not, who know? But that's not what I'm fearing.

Supports are having a lesser and lesser impact on the game with every nerf. This may make bottom lane more exciting early game, but later game the support will fall short of all the other champs because the role is gimped. Supports can't carry, they can't tank, and soon enough it seems like they won't even be able to support.

It seems to me, like I said earlier, that supports will keep being nerfed for doing their job. Eventually the healers we have now (Soraka/Sona mainly) will become overnerfed until something can be 'done about them' (in a Eve/Twitch kind of way).

I think one way to help solve this issue would be to find a way for obtaining CS on supports would be just as beneficial as CS on the AD carry. The most primal way would be to remove GP10 items (I don't think this is a good idea). Perhaps another idea would be to introduce a new support/ change Soraka's heal to become stronger not with AP, but with CS gain (Similar to Nasus Q, only stacking heal amount instead of damage).
Healers will be balanced to not negate all damage infinitely, yes. That design is an expectation, unfortunately, because it make the healer fun, but the cost of the game flow is simply not worth it. The direction is to at least make sure that they can clutch save people (Monsoon, Wish, Crescendo) but not have them undo non-burst damage easily.

Healing needs to be weaker than damage, over time, but can have strong bursts. Summoner Heal/Wish Baits are good examples of healthy heals, because you're not going to be topping off Graves with that, but you can save him if he almost dies - the healer feels epic, the benefactor is grateful, and the enemies can capitalize on the long cooldown/opportunity cost.

Right now, Soraka does both of these. We're going to make it so eventually, she can run out of mana and the enemy can seize the advantage. Sona's problem is actually not really her heal right now (that's about as balanced as it can be on that character).

This is the core design problem with not heal spells, but dedicated healers. If someone's only job is to heal, it will ruin the game if it's really satisfying. Instead, in most cases, support characters can heal if they can also do other things, and they're not only about red bars going up. There's still no team-based PvP game I can think of where this is not true.


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Pyrite Illusion

Senior Member

02-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bu773rd0g View Post
Okay, so my observation is this. Supports have gotten the most reworks and fixes out of all the team roles since I've started.

I think that is why it's so infuriating for support players. I didn't pitch a fit when Volibear was changed, and he is my favorite champion. I do have a problem with feeling like I can't bother to learn a support champ, because they will be so vastly different or weaker in a few months, that it is no longer the same champion I fell in love with.

I suppose all I really want is for supports to get a little more attention, not only in more releases, but in more careful planning so they aren't jostled around so much.

Is that understandable?
I don't think any changes to supports have required changing of game play except for Kayle but like anybody played ehr support anyway.
Sona and Soraka still played the same after the heal nerf they just couldn't ehal as much you didn't see them not being played as much.
Argo you argument is invalid.


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DoctorMcPain

Senior Member

02-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginley View Post
Strong =/= overpowered.
Strong without any farm = overpowered.


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Vycoss

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Recruiter

02-09-2012

So- ima prefix everything i say by stating, I would never disagree with any balance changes you make. I understand that balancing in a game like this is a near impossible task. Just too many variables. What is op to a 1200 elo player maybe underpowered to a 2k elo player. Skill caps and synergies with other heros is just too much to account for. Their will never be balance for all of the playerbase, and i know you guys do you're best.

That being said, i play ad bot quite a bit in ranked solo que. Im fairly high elo, not godly high, but higher than most will ever play in. I hate, when my lane picks a support that doesnt heal. I cant stand it. I know ive lost that lane. If im playing cait, and i have a janna, ive lost that lane. Janna may teamfight better than, soraka or someone else, but it may not matter cause of how the lane will go. Of course, soraka being the worst in lane, with sona being not that far behind. Also when i play cait, i wonder..if i can really lane without soraka sometimes. Mostly cause of her mass mana issues. You guys minor nerfed cait awhile back, and i was ok with that, but i was wondering if their are any qol mana changes come to her. feels like i lay a trap and press q once and i get to sit oom for 10 minutes, or be forced to run mana regen runes and lose my lane cause i dont put out enough dmg.

Also, i personally believe trist could use some work. Shes kinda outdated, and her mid game scaling seems pretty low end for most ad range. If you're going to nerf all the supports, might wanna consider the effects it might have on some of the ad bots who are also going to get hurt, and because even more obscure because the big-time ad carries will be more necessary in lane to win.


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Oppox

Senior Member

02-09-2012

Morello, with this incoming Soraka nerf will her model re-work be coming at the same time? or is this still coming soon?


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Teemo Support GG

Senior Member

02-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Then why is it the heal characters dominate instead of tank/AD kill lanes?
/Gonna take this seriously, since i have been playing support jarvan in ranked solo Q whenever i see Ashe/Sivir picked on enemy team before i get to pick.(So its me on J4+some random AD carry. Did it quite a few times in normals against a wide variety of AD champs before i started doing it in ranked.)

You need to get kills for kill lanes to be effective, and majority of AD champs can stop your attempts at killing them, then you get support CC+Heals on top of that. It becomes very risky to attempt.

All these pretty much just lol@my kill laning with J4.
Caitlyn - Traps/E
Corki - Valkyrie
Ezreal - Flashthingy
Graves - Dash+Slow
Tristana - Jump/Knockback
Vayne - Tumble(stealthed sometimes.) / Knockback

I don't see how you can kill lane these effectively. They just wait for their escape to come off CD, then CS, you go in to harass, they escape to freedom, and pretty much the best you can accomplish is denying them a little CS.

Sona/Soraka really don't deter kill lanes at all, they are actually perfect for it, they have so little CC you are pretty much free to stomp their carry all day.

Then you get Sivir/Ashe, are pretty much just dead without a CC support to back them up against a kill lane. Janna has no healing, but she hard counters kill lanes. Alistair /taric make the kill lane quite entertaining since it becomes a battle of who can CC the hardest while also providing light sustain.


Long story short.
I'm not really sure healers are to blame for the lack of kill laning as much as most AD carries being able to escape kill attempts with ease via short CD's.


Editwow this threads gone crazy xD