Morello what is your take on soraka bot lane.

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Morello

Lead Designer

02-09-2012
6 of 17 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenkid View Post
One example? how about when you reworked Soraka not into a healer but into a battle mage courtesy of Shurelia. how about the wall of Patch notes for Soraka compared to 2 paragraphs on some AA like Vayne who still gets to abuse the AD items.

novel idea how about instead of me supporting my views again and again you tell me how you love supports. go on I can wait.

Tell us how you love the meta you hate love, about all the ideas for support champs all the skins and new support champs your releasing.

All the Buffs they have gotten over the years. Tell us about your support lux, morganna, and nidelee.

now tell us about all the nerfs they have gotten patch after patch and how many reworks.

go on i can wait.
Do we hate Karthus since he's been mostly nerfed? No - it's what balance dictates.

Attention doesn't equate to personal preference, for or against. What we like actually doesn't matter, but instead, making the game better is our goal. We nerf and buff Vlad constantly and it's public that I don't care for him - our job is to make the game fun and balanced, not change stuff for us.


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CupcakeTrap

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Senior Member

02-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'm not trying to win a popularity contest with support characters - I'm trying to keep them in the game balance-wise without making them ruin it in the process. Since they're still great picks and game-worthy only proves we haven't intentionally (or even accidentally) overnerfed them.

There's tons of threads - unpopular champions (such as support) are getting skins prioritized for them, and we have a new support coming out very soon. We don't release enough new ones, agreed on that front...that's why we have to fix it.
I liked the Taric rework. He's now incentivized (heal CDR) to get in the enemy's face and beat them around to defend his lanemate. (Crucially, his self-heal and armor allow him to do this without feeding kills.) He can put himself at risk to ramp up the damage by shredding their armor. There's a lot more to him than "healbot". Sometimes I do feel invisible to my team (auras), but I really enjoy playing him and I feel there's a lot of skill to be learned as to how to use his abilities.

In general, I'm more in favor of a Janna or Taric style support than a Soraka/Sona type.

There have been some insightful and creative comments posted on this forum about supports, and I won't attempt to recapitulate all those comments, but please see the thoughts and feelings behind some of the qq on this thread.


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Adumbro Deus

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Senior Member

02-09-2012

So, how come people saying pretty much nothing of substance get a response, whereas when I write pretty much an essay on why soraka isn't "over the top" but merely boring to play it gets ignored?

Meh, order of the internet, everything useful is inevitably lost almost instantly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bu773rd0g View Post
And no. 0cs is the dumbest, most boring thing ever conceived. "See this champion? They haven't farmed, or killed! Squishy is their middle name! Focus them until your keyboard can't take it anymore!"

The 0cs meta is basically asking who on your team drew the short straw and gets to have no fun.

Lemme guess, you play and AD right clicker? I take that back... it wasn't a guess so much as a fact.
I find it incredibly amusing that the people who generally comment on this don't understand supports at all.

No, I am a support main.


Yes, we don't farm, but the point is, we don't need to, we get to bully the enemy AD carry all throughout the game and force kills. Not as interesting midgame, but we have awesome pokes and initiates.

Except soraka, she sucks. Seriously.


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Ravenkid

Senior Member

02-09-2012

Nice wording Morello but not an answer to my question this is not a popularity contest, you have your rabid fans and that is ok.

you nerf supports so hard champs like Sona have to go AD just to be playable, think about that you nerf the support so hard it is more effective to play that champ with AD items/runes/masteries. how is that balanced?


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SilentNightSona

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Senior Member

02-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Then why is it the heal characters dominate instead of tank/AD kill lanes?
Meta games come and go, and players can achieve the coordination needed to make these 'kill lanes' work. They may become necessary in the future, or not, who know? But that's not what I'm fearing.

Supports are having a lesser and lesser impact on the game with every nerf. This may make bottom lane more exciting early game, but later game the support will fall short of all the other champs because the role is gimped. Supports can't carry, they can't tank, and soon enough it seems like they won't even be able to support.

It seems to me, like I said earlier, that supports will keep being nerfed for doing their job. Eventually the healers we have now (Soraka/Sona mainly) will become overnerfed until something can be 'done about them' (in a Eve/Twitch kind of way).

I think one way to help solve this issue would be to find a way for obtaining CS on supports would be just as beneficial as CS on the AD carry. The most primal way would be to remove GP10 items (I don't think this is a good idea). Perhaps another idea would be to introduce a new support/ change Soraka's heal to become stronger not with AP, but with CS gain (Similar to Nasus Q, only stacking heal amount instead of damage).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Do we hate Karthus since he's been mostly nerfed? No - it's what balance dictates.

Attention doesn't equate to personal preference, for or against. What we like actually doesn't matter, but instead, making the game better is our goal. We nerf and buff Vlad constantly and it's public that I don't care for him - our job is to make the game fun and balanced, not change stuff for us.
BTW, I don't believe that any one member of Riots' staff (or the whole staff for that matter) opinion on a specific champion would affect buffs/nerfs without significant evidence that changes need to be made. It's just that when certain changes don't work, it seems redundant to reduce the same problem further, rather than change it to something new (such as the heal stacking idea above).

For example, I (obviously not a member of Riot staff, but I digress) do not prefer champs like Yi, Tryndamere, GP, etc. I don't play them, and I don't know if I could ever stand to. Sometimes when they are on the enemy team and get fed, it may seem to me like they are OP, but I realize that player skill and/or luck may have been involved. My opinion alone would never be enough to justify a nerf without substancial and extensive evidence that there is a problem.

Of course I still see more Yi's Trynd's and GP's than other harder to play melee champs, but this is mainly because they are much easier to play (or so I have been told, lol). The same will be true of supports. Some will be easier to play; some may be stronger at sustaining then others; this doesn't mean that they need to be nerfed 'down to the level' of the others, otherwise they lose their niche and are no longer going to be useful to the team.

TL/DR: It seems to me that people will just keep complaining about supports until they become completely and utterly useless.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-09-2012
7 of 17 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by CupcakeTrap View Post
I liked the Taric rework.

In general, I'm more in favor of a Janna or Taric style support than a Soraka/Sona type.

There have been some insightful and creative comments posted on this forum about supports, and I won't attempt to recapitulate all those comments, but please see the thoughts and feelings behind some of the qq on this thread.
Agreed - the lack of new stuff is totally valid, and we're fixing that. I can understand that argument and agree.

That supports are hated and the nerfs speak to that is the silly part. I don't care if something gets nerfed 500 times if it's still strong afterwards, it means we probably did the right thing.


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Bu773rd0g

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Senior Member

02-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'm not trying to win a popularity contest with support characters - I'm trying to keep them in the game balance-wise without making them ruin it in the process. Since they're still great picks and game-worthy only proves we haven't intentionally (or even accidentally) overnerfed them.

There's tons of threads - unpopular champions (such as support) are getting skins prioritized for them, and we have a new support coming out very soon. We don't release enough new ones, agreed on that front...that's why we have to fix it.
Okay, so my observation is this. Supports have gotten the most reworks and fixes out of all the team roles since I've started.

I think that is why it's so infuriating for support players. I didn't pitch a fit when Volibear was changed, and he is my favorite champion. I do have a problem with feeling like I can't bother to learn a support champ, because they will be so vastly different or weaker in a few months, that it is no longer the same champion I fell in love with.

I suppose all I really want is for supports to get a little more attention, not only in more releases, but in more careful planning so they aren't jostled around so much.

Is that understandable?


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DarienWeedstorm

Senior Member

02-09-2012

So, out of curiosity can we get a little bit of something for Janna to bump her back up again in a few patches if these support nerfs don't do it? She's one of the highest skill supports and in my opinion has the best made and funnest kit out of any of them. Because of this I feel she deserves to be considered just as viable as these two since she's a lot harder to play. The same goes for Ali, he's probably the hardest support to play although you don't get yelled at for picking him. Although if the rework knocks these two down this would be entirely unnecessary.
My suggestion would be something like increase the shields duration for 1-2 seconds or make it take 10-20 more damage. None of those things would put her over the top, but they'd make her compare a bit better to the other two.


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DoctorMcPain

Senior Member

02-09-2012

Wow, so much hate on Morello. Do you guys realize that supports are the only champions in the game who can be gamebreaking without any farm at all? Try to pick Kennen, or Cassiopeia, Ahri, whatever other champion and give them 0 CS. They're useless. They're nothing. Now Alistar with 0 cs is gamebreaking. Sona is ridiculous. Soraka is ridiculous. The fact that these champions can be as useful as any other solo lane without any farm at all makes them insanely strong. No matter how much you nerf the pure supports, they will always be strong.

I like playing support, in fact I've been support main in a couple ranked teams and I loved it. My best champion is still Janna despite lots of solo queueing in ranked. And I'm pretty confident when I say supports are the main reason why the 'meta' has such a hard time changing.


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Crescive

Junior Member

02-09-2012

I just really hope the nerfs dont reach a point where champions that aren't even designed to be support (i.e gangplank) are better than champs that are designed to be support.