Questions about jungling.

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Ryoxis

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Junior Member

02-05-2012

Hey everyone! this is oficcially my first pos ton teh LoL Forums, and I'm now level 24 So I guess it's a good thing I havent needed help this far yet? - Anyway, i have a few questions.

Throughout my entire gaming experience, I have never once - Jungled. I have heard of it. I have seen people try to do it on my team and fail, however, opposing teams always seem to figure it out :P. So - Due to this, i conjured a 2 day killing spree to collect the IP for Udyur. I hear he is excellent for jungling, and his skills i belive are powerful pushers, and wonderful combatant! So, after buying udyr, i proceeded to read moba fire guides, etc etc, and quickly picked up on the jungling routes in bot games i created custome for myself. I quickly gained levels ahead of the bots, i quickly obtained my gear, and i quickly reached more power. I ran into a couple of issue though.

1. In a real match, the people are obviously not retarded. So - they move at a much faster pace in pvp. I was unable to keep a steady pace of jungling to keep higher wealth and power.

2. the lack of 1 person in a lane, meant my team was gonna be well, loosing. Do you suggest a tank? Which one? I Highly belive in shen, due to his spammable harrass to keep things at bay. But - I prefer not, simply because hes my main toon :P and I dont liek when others use him incorrectly, to"my standards" what ever they may be

3. the Wriggles lantern, or what ever its called. Where the hell do I put that thing?!?! I knwo i mark important territory, like certain buffs. but, the boss buff? the big red skull guy, right? or do i use it to counter, any ganking IN the jungle? I tend to do both just incase, however, id lvoe to hear suggestions.

Generally, thats what I have the issue with..I feel like im missing something though. howeve r- this is purely the 5v5 map...Now onto the 3v3 - yes, TT... I wish knowledge upon it.

Now - in TT, i wa slike - OH YA!!! jungle in 3v3 im gonna rock!! - It didnt work out so well...However, i caught my eye on something....with Udyr, i played top lane, pushing minions, avoiding range tactics, and upon a push, i would revert into the top jungle, kill minions, grab a buff, coem back down and push more. everytime the enemies minions were pushed to the turret, i left to jungle and gank. i was level 18, when they were level 15. I felt amazing - however, i feel it may have been due to a less skilled team. My team lacked coordination, and they seemed to just...Play. Now - is what i soley discoverd, viable??? is that, used? a good tactic even?

My Udyr build - Lantern, Mercury treads/Tabi (depednign on team), Wits end, Frozen mallet, Atmas Impaler, Warmogs.

Now - this build, is a moba fire build, (obviously if you recognized it) it is not my own creation. However - I feel that its okay to start with, but as the game progresses, i like to not only kill..i like to obliterate.. So once I am 18, and no longer need to farm anything but buffs, and kill and push, would it be worthy to sell things, and buy new things?

Lanter, i replace with blood thirster. I just think its a better option late game. and if i managed to get this far, and get this higher level, and geared...that the lack of the lantern will be fine. Gernally i keep my boots, unless i get tired of being slow, i use boots of mobility, to rush ganks much faster. Wits end, I have yet found a replacement for, but i kinda like it. Atmas impalet, I turned into infinities edge. the bonus damage and the crit smacking, is much more powerful than the damage output from the impalters 2% buff from HP. Though, cheaper - but I only change it up, late game. Frozen mallet says, forever and always. <3. and Warmongs, i keep as well.

Any suggestions? tactics? links? Guides? Somethign useful woudl be appreciated, that I dont hopefully already know, or have seen <3 Thank you bunchies.


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Tyrang

Senior Member

02-05-2012

1. You should nvr have issue with jungle speed if you use Udyr, his speed is godly, granted you go with phoenix.

2. Learn how the meta works. Top lane is usually bruiser (or champs that can sustain themselves). If it is a 1v2 lane top, ask the top lane if they are ok with 1v2. Gank the lane more. As you lvl up, that should happen less and less.

3. I wouldnt recommend wriggle for phoenix udyr. AD means nothing to him, unless you run tiger udyr. You do want to get wards. Where to put them depends on how many wards you have, and if you support are buying wards. During laning, dragon should be warded, u should also throw a ward for mid and top if there is an enemy jungle and you have spare wards. If you wanna counter jungle, ward their wraith area or blue. Warding close to enemy wraith is very worth while, since a lot of the time, the junglers will do wraith and then gank mid. So you can help the mid to prevent ganks and also look to counter jungle. Late game u need to ward baron. If you are winning, ward their jungle, if you are losing, ward your jungle.

A few things I wanna point out:
- you should start with using Phoenix udyr. It is a much better jungle spec
- Phoenix udyr should build tanky
- Udyr is very versatile. You can start ganking at lvl 2 if you want, you do have to get bear form at lvl 2 if you wish to do that. You can also counter jungle easily, since it is udyr.
- Take advantage of his jungle speed, you can gank frequently, and even you fail to get any kills, you can still spd jungle and catch up lvl easily
- Save smite if you know that dragon or baron will be up and there will be contest for it
- Control your buffs (give 2nd blue onwards to mid), and control dragon
- Take flash with you, your stun requires you to run up to enemy. Sometimes having the flash mean guarantee gank kills
- Don't rely on mobafire, their build is no good a lot of the time. Like I said, wriggle is not a good item for Phoenix udyr, get wit end, and build tanky (raduin, FON are really good stuff, i also get spark sometimes, but a lot of ppl disagree with this item). You don't need atmog, health is nice, but your don't need the atma stats. It is pretty expensive, you can spend it on other tanky items, even sunfire is better.

GLHF


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Ryoxis

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Junior Member

02-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrang View Post
1. You should nvr have issue with jungle speed if you use Udyr, his speed is godly, granted you go with phoenix.

2. Learn how the meta works. Top lane is usually bruiser (or champs that can sustain themselves). If it is a 1v2 lane top, ask the top lane if they are ok with 1v2. Gank the lane more. As you lvl up, that should happen less and less.

etc....
GLHF

Well, i appreciate the reply! now - i do use Phoenix, my order goes r,w,r,e,r,q and so on - till phoenix is capped and so is turtle, then work on the tiger, then the bear. Now - I do use, the tiger stance, often in pvp. works great after a bear stance stun, then rip em to shreds, turtle incoming damage, repeat. So - to build him tanky - what items do you suggest? I dont wanna be ridiculous and stack mongs, unless that seems to work, id like damage output faster....1 mongs end game seems to work fine, but i dont build up enough fast enough..I dont feel effecient ganking at 2. with a vamp scepter in my hand, and maybe a boot...any suggestions on that? Or do i solety rely on stunnign and letting team take over? My team seems to lean towards...the less noticable kind lol. *huh , what? Gank? Okay, ill stand here and watch you, instead of come in to kill with. trololol* - So, am i screwed to run up and finish the job myself without relying on them? i <3 ambushing...


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Etherimp

Senior Member

02-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryoxis View Post
Hey everyone! this is oficcially my first pos ton teh LoL Forums, and I'm now level 24 So I guess it's a good thing I havent needed help this far yet? - Anyway, i have a few questions.

Throughout my entire gaming experience, I have never once - Jungled. I have heard of it. I have seen people try to do it on my team and fail, however, opposing teams always seem to figure it out :P. So - Due to this, i conjured a 2 day killing spree to collect the IP for Udyur. I hear he is excellent for jungling, and his skills i belive are powerful pushers, and wonderful combatant! So, after buying udyr, i proceeded to read moba fire guides, etc etc, and quickly picked up on the jungling routes in bot games i created custome for myself. I quickly gained levels ahead of the bots, i quickly obtained my gear, and i quickly reached more power. I ran into a couple of issue though.

Welcome to the club. Jungling is crucial to the current meta's team-play, and if done correctly can make a huge difference in your win ratio.

Firstly, here is a good guide.. Some of the info may or may not be slightly outdated, but the guide itself is HUGE and there is a lot of info to be gleaned from it:

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-le...s-he-do-114118

Also, I strongly suggest you read up on some threads/guides about jungling and your responsibilities as a jungler. It's very easy to get blamed for not doing your job. Many people (especially those who have never jungled before), have no idea as to all of the things a jungler actually does and how important they are.. Furthermore, there are just as many junglers out there who have no idea WTF they're doing. Don't be one of them.

Quote:
1. In a real match, the people are obviously not retarded. So - they move at a much faster pace in pvp. I was unable to keep a steady pace of jungling to keep higher wealth and power.
You should be able (if you so desired) to stay in your jungle non-stop due to the Season 2 changes in the jungle. If you do so, you will be on par in XP/Gold AT LEAST with Bot lane (AD+Support). The idea is that you have 1 solo top, 1 solo mid, 1 AD bot with a support who is NOT soaking up CS (So all of the CS is going to the AD carry). This gives you a huge gold advantage over a team WITHOUT a jungler.

The things you should watch out for? Don't recall too much or too little. Don't let your health get too low. Take the most direct route to clearing your jungle and avoid making long trips back and forth. The faster you clear your jungle the better. If you start at blue, by the time you get to red you should still have several seconds left on your smite cooldown (Depending on the champ you're using and how strong of a leash you got).

Quote:
2. the lack of 1 person in a lane, meant my team was gonna be well, loosing. Do you suggest a tank? Which one? I Highly belive in shen, due to his spammable harrass to keep things at bay. But - I prefer not, simply because hes my main toon :P and I dont liek when others use him incorrectly, to"my standards" what ever they may be
Solo-top is usually give to a tanky-dps/bruiser/fighter/ap tank type, but many tanks and some Mages/Carrys could do it as well. Morde, Irelia, Garen, Cho'gath, Maokai, Galio, Vlad, Kennan, Nidalee, etc. What these champs have in common is that they have "sustain" and/or "poke". In other words, they can defend their lane against most opponents without having to recall very often. This is the most common lane for you to see people choosing Teleport as a summoner spell.

Quote:
3. the Wriggles lantern, or what ever its called. Where the hell do I put that thing?!?! I knwo i mark important territory, like certain buffs. but, the boss buff? the big red skull guy, right? or do i use it to counter, any ganking IN the jungle? I tend to do both just incase, however, id lvoe to hear suggestions.
Normally, after my first jungle clear I pick up boots, 2 health pots, and 3 wards, and then I go to gank. On my way to gank I drop a ward off at dragon, enemy blue (or red, depending on enemy champ and my champ), and I ward the jungle exit towards top lane. This gives my top lane ample warning if there is a jungle gank coming for them.

If you go this route, be sure to make your Bot/Middle lanes aware of the Blue/Red ward, so that they may come assist you when the enemy goes to take their buff. This is counter-jungling.

First priority - Stay alive
Second priority - Steal the buff
Third priority - Kill enemy jungler.

It's possible (And common) for a team fight to ensue here and if you do not come prepared counter jungling can backfire real easy.


It is (nice, but) not your job to ward top lane or bottom lane bushes. It is their responsibility as good laners to NOT overextend their lane and NOT make themselves easy gank targets by wandering around in lane with low hp whilst overextended. The only ward which is absolutely necessary for you to place is the one at Dragon, as dragon control is extremely important in the early->mid game. You should be taking it any time your team has a clear advantage and you have 3-4 people to help. By clear advantage I mean 3v2 or 4v3 situation. After ganking bot lane if everyones health is adequate, that's when you want to take dragon. The enemy team is forced to either let you have it, or come team-fight you over it, in which case they will likely lose.

I ward top side river as a courtesy to my solo-top because solo-top is often required to endure for long periods of time without having a chance to recall, so they may not be able to run right back and get wards before the earliest possible ganks show up (Anywhere between level 2 and 6, depending on jungler. Average is level 4.)

Also, in order of gank priority: Bottom, Top, Mid.

Why?

Bottom lane is 2v2 and has an AD carry in the lane. By turning it into a 3v2, you have much better odds of scoring more gold between more people. Kills + 2 assists = lots of gold. Also, Bot lane is usually filled with squishies. Who's easier to kill... Garen, who can shield, Q, and E is way back to his tower, and then just regen all of his health? or... Caitlyn and Sona who have probably the combined health total of the Garen mentioned above and less escapes between the two of them?

Furthermore, Bot lane has much better chances of taking their tower much more quickly than top does. Your top is a solo-top BECAUSE he/she has sustain/longevity. They are meant to survive there for long periods of time without your assistance. If they can't - Then they are failing in their lane... Which, obviously, you should try to remedy by ganking.. Which is why they are #2 in list of priorities.

Finally, Mid is third priority simply because the lane is so difficult to gank. It's shorter, and much easier to see ganks coming into unless the mid opponent is extremely overextended and has taken adequate harass. Also, mid AP Carrys tend to have deadly CC and burst potential which can make a gank backfire very easily. This is not to say it is IMPOSSIBLE or shouldn't be ATTEMPTED just to make them blow cooldowns or have to recall, giving your mid an advantage... but it should be done wisely.

Take special note of the mid-lanes health, and especially mana pool. If they are extremely low on mana and overextended with less than 3/4 health, they are just BEGGING to be ganked. If you have any type of communication with your mid-laner, ask them if mid has blown any summoner spells like Flash/Ghost/Heal, etc. Better mid players will not overextend if they do not have some sort of escape... But inexperienced mid players will blow all of their cooldowns and mana, and continue to overextend because they're stuck in an aggressive mindset... If this is the case, you should be there to punish them for it.

Finally, after level 6 you should mostly be roaming between lanes ganking, warding, counter jungling, and clearing your own jungle as much as you can. Your presence should be felt on the map. You'd be surprised how game-breaking that presence can be when done properly. Something as seemingly "small" as stealing blue buff from the enemy jungler can be game changing. That counter-jungling may result in Amumu not being able to ult your team, or Rammus not ganking a lane, or Lee Sin failing a gank because he does not have red buff to slow one of your teammates with.

Watch some high ELO games of junglers. This will give you a huge leg-up on people at your current level.


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Folly Inc

Senior Member

02-05-2012

It seems to me you have the basics of jungling down in 5v5. The things I would focus on now is predicting when enemies are going to push a lane. Map Awareness is paramount when playing the role of jungler. Moving from one side of the jungle to another if counter jungling is possible, moving from one side of you jungle to the other when it looks like bottom lane or top lane is going to have trouble. Adapting your jungle route to whomever needs you most or whomever will need you most soon is a key trait in all junglers.


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Ryoxis

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Junior Member

02-05-2012

freaking AWESOME. tyvm Etherimp. I highly enjoy jungling, it makes me feel like im in my own world, like i have control, like I am the reason we win or loose. and it seesm to fair that way, Im always the highest level, the most wealthy, kills, assists, and sometimes i sacrifice myself to get the tank or the carry a chance to gain some kill gold. though not gonna do in ranked games unles...for some reason needed.

Now - all my 5v5 questiosn have been aspired...What about 3v3? no one nodded at it even. lol


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Etherimp

Senior Member

02-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryoxis View Post
freaking AWESOME. tyvm Etherimp. I highly enjoy jungling, it makes me feel like im in my own world, like i have control, like I am the reason we win or loose. and it seesm to fair that way, Im always the highest level, the most wealthy, kills, assists, and sometimes i sacrifice myself to get the tank or the carry a chance to gain some kill gold. though not gonna do in ranked games unles...for some reason needed.

Now - all my 5v5 questiosn have been aspired...What about 3v3? no one nodded at it even. lol
I don't play 3v3 so I couldn't tell you. Sorry. Out of my depth.


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Tyrang

Senior Member

02-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryoxis View Post
Well, i appreciate the reply! now - i do use Phoenix, my order goes r,w,r,e,r,q and so on - till phoenix is capped and so is turtle, then work on the tiger, then the bear. Now - I do use, the tiger stance, often in pvp. works great after a bear stance stun, then rip em to shreds, turtle incoming damage, repeat. So - to build him tanky - what items do you suggest? I dont wanna be ridiculous and stack mongs, unless that seems to work, id like damage output faster....1 mongs end game seems to work fine, but i dont build up enough fast enough..I dont feel effecient ganking at 2. with a vamp scepter in my hand, and maybe a boot...any suggestions on that? Or do i solety rely on stunnign and letting team take over? My team seems to lean towards...the less noticable kind lol. *huh , what? Gank? Okay, ill stand here and watch you, instead of come in to kill with. trololol* - So, am i screwed to run up and finish the job myself without relying on them? i <3 ambushing...
First of all, I think it is better to pick either Phoenix or Tiger, don't be wishy-washy and do both. The 2 stance required different itemization. Phoenix needs AS and Tiger needs AD. If you want to be a bruiser then do Tiger and go thru the atmog route. Otherwise, get wit end (maybe spark as well) with items like Raduin, FON, Aegis (see if your support is getting it), sunfire cap, frozen hearth etc.

On init, you prolly want to bear it, stun as many enemies as possible, then it depends on the situation, you might want to turtle then phoenix so you can soak up more atks.

For ganks, if your laners are brain dead, ping them. Tell them if you want them to not push or push. If they are not doing it, you move on. Time is valuable as junglers.

Lastly, get used to ppl complain. A lot of the time, jungler will be the go-to person for blame. You will have to get use to it. In exchange, if you are good, you can change the flow of the game by your will. If one or two lanes are losing, you can still win the game. If the jungler lost, it is **** near impossible.

Good luck.


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Ryoxis

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Junior Member

02-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrang View Post
First of all, I think it is better to pick either Phoenix or Tiger, don't be wishy-washy and do both. The 2 stance required different itemization. Phoenix needs AS and Tiger needs AD. If you want to be a bruiser then do Tiger and go thru the atmog route. Otherwise, get wit end (maybe spark as well) with items like Raduin, FON, Aegis (see if your support is getting it), sunfire cap, frozen hearth etc.

On init, you prolly want to bear it, stun as many enemies as possible, then it depends on the situation, you might want to turtle then phoenix so you can soak up more atks.

For ganks, if your laners are brain dead, ping them. Tell them if you want them to not push or push. If they are not doing it, you move on. Time is valuable as junglers.

Lastly, get used to ppl complain. A lot of the time, jungler will be the go-to person for blame. You will have to get use to it. In exchange, if you are good, you can change the flow of the game by your will. If one or two lanes are losing, you can still win the game. If the jungler lost, it is **** near impossible.

Good luck.
I do agree that I should go either which way, but what i mean is eitheir way, the ability points get put into all the skills eventually by 18, and therefore, islap them all continuisly spamming my passive. I have also thought about grabbing Guisinos rageblade and wopping out damage like i do with jax. But all in time for testing. Im currently reading the guide that a previous response sent.

THank all of you for your fast, reliant, responses.

One more Question.

When it comes to warding - I understand the reasoning, the positions, etc. However the wards are consumables, and only last 3 minutes. games last a long long time in comparison. So does thi smean i have to constantly respend the money to refresh the wards that are no longer in use? or can i refreesh the alreayd placed ones CD somehow? idk if ic an pick them up and replace.


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Tyrang

Senior Member

02-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryoxis View Post
I do agree that I should go either which way, but what i mean is eitheir way, the ability points get put into all the skills eventually by 18, and therefore, islap them all continuisly spamming my passive. I have also thought about grabbing Guisinos rageblade and wopping out damage like i do with jax. But all in time for testing. Im currently reading the guide that a previous response sent.

THank all of you for your fast, reliant, responses.
The reason i say pick either phoenix or tiger is that, you can only max three of your stances as Udyr. You have to max Phoenix for sure, and Turtle as well. I mean, if you really want, you can max tiger over bear, but it really doesnt make sense as you are not speccing into tiger for it to do dmg anyways. Bear allows u to catch ppl.

I dont recommend rageblade, the stats make no sense for Udyr. While it is true that Phoenix scale on AP, it is a really poor scaling (0.25). So with rage blade, you will be doing a whooping 11 more dmg on both the AOE and third atk. AD stats, again, doesnt do anything for Phoenix stance. It doesn't even make sense for tiger stance, since tiger has no use of AP.

If you want more dmg out as Phoenix, go wit's end, spark and sunfire. It is weird, but at least the stat makes sense. They give you a lot of AOE dmg (around 2.5k bonus dmg in 5 sec on top of your basic atk). They also makes you tankier.


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