Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Lets discuss Ryze

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MorikTheMad

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
corallein:
Leveling E first is more damage at a longer range.
Leveling W first is a longer root.


Well, what I mean is at lvl 2, Jiji's guide gets E instead of W.

I would think you'd want to be able to root to be able to Q->W->auto attack->Q in response to harrass attempts, and to be able to throw off a quick W and escape from melee junglers coming to gank you early.

W scales with mana, E doesn't... I can't see leveling E first. Its only really damaging if you:
- have more AP (only happens when you start getting AA, void/abyssal, WoTA)
- get it to bounce. This is more likely to hit your intended target if you are either right next to them with no other targets, or during a teamfight. For teamfights, you don't need to level E first, since those don't happen for the first part of the game.

The other use for E is the MPen it provides. But I think the root duration and higher damage W does is more important early on.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

corallein

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Leveling an ability doesn't improve its scaling.
W adds +0.25 seconds to root, +35 damage per level.
E adds +3 MR reduction, +20 damage per bounce per level.

If E hits with two bounces, it will do more base damage than W, even disregarding the MR reduction. It's also important that E has 50 more range and costs 20 less mana, so it's a better harassing spell.

As for which one to get a point in first, that depends on if you're worried about level 2-3 ganks or not.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rakaydos

Senior Member

02-01-2012

I usually max Strength of Spirit in utility with 2 points in Inteligence. I The extra lane sustain is stronger at most levels than 9% spellvamp.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MorikTheMad

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
corallein:
Leveling an ability doesn't improve its scaling.
W adds +0.25 seconds to root, +35 damage per level.
E adds +3 MR reduction, +20 damage per bounce per level.

If E hits with two bounces, it will do more base damage than W, even disregarding the MR reduction. It's also important that E has 50 more range and costs 20 less mana, so it's a better harassing spell.

As for which one to get a point in first, that depends on if you're worried about level 2-3 ganks or not.


Very fair point regarding scaling, brain fart on my part.

The root duration is important though--getting a longer root can be the difference between getting off an additional Q, and gives your teammates more of a chance to wail on someone. And if you need to trap someone so you can escape, longer root helps with that too. I dunno, I just find that the longer root is more beneficial than possibly doing a bit more damage (and then only in some circumstances).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MorikTheMad

Senior Member

02-01-2012

I tried the flat mana and didn't really like it that much. You certainly hit a lot harder, but I dislike giving up the 4.5% extra movespeed.

I ended up playing a few games with full flat MR glyphs and movespeed quints (and 0/21/9). I found it quite nice both in mid, solo top, and in a side lane.

You are right about the CDR not really being too much of an issue, but I was able to grab blue buff several times. I love being able to throw abilities around like a madman without worrying about running out of mana. Charges tear fast, and can clear minion waves pretty quickly.

Anyway, starting with 49 MR and 507 health is nothing to sneeze at in mid. With health/lvl seals, and the health/lvl mastery, that MR just gets sweeter as your health builds more quickly.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Deathfairy

Senior Member

02-02-2012

I run a strange variation of all this.
I run 0/7/23 masteries.

Defense 6 MR, 2 armor, 3 hp/5
Utility - usualy, reason for 23 is 3 points in strength of spirit.

For runes i run:

Red MrPen
Mana/lvl yellow (could be amything really, mana regen, armor..)
6 Flat cdr blue
3 Flat mana blue
3 Flat mana quints.

With FH it gives me 39.83 cdr (which i can live with)
At lvl 1 i have 683 mana with mana crystal and 15 hp/5 sec regen, Which allows me to trade from lvl 1 like no tomorrow.

Reasoning for this build. In all my ryze games it usually comes down to laning phase. If i can get win/get good farm in lane i dominate mid/late. And if i get shut down in lane then no masteries will help me later. This build maximizes Ryze laning potential. I do not have MS quints, they might be possibility here as well, lose 100 mana and 1 hp/5 for 4.5% speed. I v been meaning to try it honestly that speed can be amazing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MorikTheMad

Senior Member

02-02-2012

Strength of spirit is strong, but look what you give up. You can get a bit more CDR out of defense (though it isn't flat), meaning you can just not take any CDR runes if you are willing to cap at 38.2 or so. (3 focus glyphs will cap you)

You give up 138 health (30 of it flat, plus another 6 per level).

You give up 3% extra movespeed while over 70% health. (Helps dodging skillshots while laning even more, helps getting back into the action after you b, and late game when you have a WoTA & are using your ult often, you should pretty much always be over 70% health except in the middle of a teamfight if you are being focused. So... yeah, nice movespeed)

You give up 10 stacking tenacity. (Tenacity doesn't stack, but the 21 point defense talent doesn't give straight tenacity, it gives 10% reduction in disable duration, which will stack with tenacity.)

You give up 3% to max health.


If you build health/lvl yellows for another 175 health, you end up pretty tanky with your core build. (Thats almost 291 extra health once the 3% extra is added in.)

My last few games I did the following, and did really well:
- Red MPen
- Yellow health/lvl
- Blue flat MR
- Quint move speed

0/21/9 like so: http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-1&tree3=1-0-3-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0&v=2

Build tear -> t1 boots -> catalyst -> shroud -> t2 boots (can go sorc shoes or merc treads... I always go sorc, but should probably consider mercs)

go from there depending on the situation. Note that at that point, you'll have around 100 armor (depending on your level), and 49 MR. (leaguecraft builder is showing Ryze's base as 35 MR instead of 30 for some reason, but the wiki & my recollection is that it is 30)

I usually build bveil next, unless I'm really cleaning up and they have nothing that I need bveil to block. In which case I'll sidetrack to get a hextech revolver first. That way, if I can pick up blue buff (note that you'll only have 31% CDR or so at this point, depending on your level), I can stay out as long as I like. (The extra spellvamp keeps you topped much better than just the spellvamp from your ult, which requires a group of enemies no one else is killing for you to drop your load on.)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Deathfairy

Senior Member

02-02-2012

You answer is chaotic at best.
1) you mention all the things i miss from defense tree, and don't even bother with anything you gain in utility outside strength of spirit. There are more talents there.
2) Next you bring in yellow runes selection, it is 100% not connected to masteries. Mana/level or hp/level or flat armor or Mp5 it is 100% preference it barely makes a real difference.
3) I specifically said this build maximizes early game potential. I feel that it allows me to farm a lot more and as a result i am ahead in items making up for minor issues.

If you want to object, then compare gains vs losses, and explain why you prefer one over the other. Yet again there is not 100% right answer. To me early game power is most important because to ME it is the weakest issue. IMHO onc ei have my core items i could care less abotu extra 200 hp, i can dominate as it is. But getting to that point is problematic.

The only valid issue i see is lack of speed. Yet again mana quints are preference right now. This build does not exclude MS quints. But yes 3% speed can easily be a difference between getting prison or not getting it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MorikTheMad

Senior Member

02-02-2012

WIthout your specific masteries, I'll assume you use the following (wasn't sure about some of your point decisions in utility): http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=0-3-1-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree3=1-0-3-0-4-0-0-0-3-1-0-4-0-3-3-1&v=2

WIth possibly moving 3 points from awareness into meditation (since ryze doesn't really get anything spectacular at lvl 6, no need to rush for it... could also move the last point from awareness into the GP10 mastery, or faster recall I suppose)

Anyway:

Comparing the above to this 0/21/9: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/redirect.php?do=verify&redirect_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mobafire.com%2Fleague-of-legends%2Fmastery-tree-planner%23%26amp%3Btree1%3D0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0%26amp%3Btree2%3D0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-1%26amp%3Btree3%3D1-0-3-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0%26amp%3Bv%3D2

Since you are concerned with early game power, that is what I will focus on, but will also comment a bit on late game.

What do you get that gives you any advantage in the early game, which isn't in the 0/21/9 build?

- 3 MP5 & 1 GP10 (or extra experience points). Discussed below.

- 3% spellvamp. Not really that significant. Can help sustain a bit.

- 1% max mana as HP5. At lvl 1, you have 505 mana with crystal. (And no mana runes). So thats 5 hp5. And this does keep on going up throughout the game as you build more mana. Its a very nice mastery.

- 6% flat CDR (including points from offense tree). Its nice to have this from the start as opposed to the scaling defense mastery (which is only at 4% by lvl 9).

- 15% CDR on summoner spells. This is a very nice mastery, useful for the entire game.

Now, that extra mp5. Lets say you stay out for 4-5 minutes before your first recall to get a tear. Lets be generous and say 6 minutes even: so out until the 7:30 mark. Lets be more generous and say that you start using mana as soon as minions spawn, and are never full.
20 * 3 = 60 mp per minute, for 360 mp over that time. That isn't insignificant, but what does it get you? It lets you throw 3-5 more spells, depending on which ones.
Realistically, you won't be out for 6 minutes most of the time before getting tear. I think I usually recall to get it around 5 minutes?
What do you do with those spells? Well, you can try to harass more, but look at my playstyle comments below.

Once you have tear and are back out in lane, you get to use a few more spells between recalls. 3-5, maybe even 6 or 7 spells if you are out for a long time. That's if you never get blue buff. If you get blue buff the MP5 becomes useless while you have it.

MP5 also falls off as you get a huge mana pool. Being able to throw 3 or so extra spells every 6 minutes isn't that significant late game.

If you go with the awareness mastery instead, you get experience a bit faster. This can mean you will level up a few kills earlier, which may end up saving your life, or letting you squeeze in a kill you wouldn't have otherwise. But I'd say its not going to make a difference that often. (I'm not saying it makes no difference though.)


What do you get with 0/21/9 that you don't get with the above build:

- +6 hp/lvl (108 at 18). During the early levels, this is +6 at lvl 1, and +36 at lvl 6. Not huge, but still helps early game survivability.

- +30 flat HP. I find this helpful in improving early game survivability.

- +4 armor. Helps a tad, but not all that much.

- +3% movespeed while over 70% health. I really like this one. Helps in dodging skill shots and such. If you are running movespeed quints, then without this mastery, you are at 330 movespeed with no boots. With it, at 339. Its a tiny, but noticeable, difference. Can also make the difference when darting in against a dangerous opponent to get into last hit range, and then getting out without taking too much damage. Or darting in to toss a Q when they try to last hit, and get away without taking a shot.

- a bit more total CDR: 2.1% more at lvl 18. Not an early game concern, but can help free up rune choices, and rune choices can affect your early game.

- 3% more total health helps bring your survivability up a bit more in the early game. Its around 13-15 health I believe (depending on your runes). And this also scales nicely into late game.

- 10% reduced disable duration. This can save you from ganks during laning, and if you end up buying merc treads, stacks with them. If you don't buy them, it gives you some nice disable reduction. I think this is very nice.


So, why do I think defense has more going for it? 3 things:
1) All that health. You get around 50 extra health at lvl 1 (30 flat, 6 from the 6 per level mastery, then 3% of your total). Add in your armor & MR, and that 50 health is pretty nice.
Ending up with 138 extra flat health at lvl 18, and then 3% of your total health on top of it, isn't bad at end game either. Given how high your defenses rise, health is pretty effective on Ryze.

2) The extra movespeed

3) The 10% disable duration reduction is very nice for getting away from slows/stuns/etc.



Runes: you say rune selection is 100% not connected to masteries. I disagree. Runes interact with masteries. If you have extra health, lets say, then MR and armor runes gain value. If you don't take any CDR masteries, then you are probably going to want to take some CDR runes, limiting your selection of glyphs. Etc.

Anyway, I think that getting flat MR glpyhs and scaling health seals, in addition to the health and resists from the defense tree, complement each other to help Ryze be tougher from lvl 1, allowing him to stay in lane longer, survive harassment better, and be able to harass back without fear of taking as much damage.


Playstyle:

With the 0/21/9 build above, you can sit back and farm with auto attacks, saving your Q for hitting your opponent whenever they try to last hit. If they have a really long range auto attack, then instead use Q to supplement your auto attacks, saving at least 50% of your mana. Keep W around for if you need to snare a jungler coming at you, or your lane opponent.

Against squishies or shorter ranged opponents, you can be somewhat more aggressive. With 49 MR and over 500 starting health, you aren't easy for AP champs to do much damage to. If there is an AD in mid, you can still do reasonable damage to them, but play it a bit safer.

The point of the build is that even if you end up against someone who it isn't safe to trade constantly with, you can still sit back and farm. They won't be able to wear you down very quickly. Your movespeed means you can keep away from them, or snare and run without taking too many hits.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rakaydos

Senior Member

02-02-2012

with a 21 in utility, I go for extra starting gold- while others might use that for an extra pot, I count it toward an early tear. The sooner I can start snowballing it, the sooner midgame starts.


123