Lets discuss Ryze

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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

02-01-2012

In a prior thread, a 0/21/9 build for ryze was brought up (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1489749).

In most builds I'm seeing these days, 9/0/21 is still espoused.

I still see a variety of rune suggestions as well.


I wanted to start a thread to consolidate my thoughts, and get some feedback.


First, let me lay out what I think I know of the main builds.


Things that are always the same:

Marks: MPen

The seals should be health/level, I think. After playing around in character planner on leaguecraft, I think the benefit throughout all the levels and itemization is better with health/lvl vs flat armor. Flat armor is a LITTLE more helpful at lower levels against physical attacks. Health/lvl is more effective later on against physical (due to frozen heart eventually, which you will get if you face strong physical threats). Health/lvl is, of course, much more effective against magical damage.

(Not really discussing item build, but both builds assume you are getting glacial shroud relatively early)


0/21/9 build

I've seen several variations of this. The masteries are the same in each: http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-le...-0-0-0-0-0&v=2

The point in runic mastery can be put somewhere else if you like, such as in offense/summoner's wrath if you run ghost or ignite, or in improved recall.

Anyway, the idea here is to get a good amount of extra health and resists from the defense tree, along with a nice 3% extra movespeed when you have higher health.

Variations come in with the runes. Some say that you shouldn't be forced to rush Frozen heart immediately, in which case you want to be able to hit 40% CDR (or as close as you can) as soon as you have glacial shroud and 5 points in overload at lvl 9. This means you need 9 focus glyphs and 3 focus quints.

With just glyphs and quints, a shroud and 5 points in overload, you end up at 39.82% CDR. Note that at lvl 9, the defense CDR mastery is only half-loaded, so you get 4.05% from it. You'll cap at lvl 10 when you get another .45% from it.

If you don't mind rushing FH immediately, you can drop the focus quints (giving you 34.9% CDR at lvl 9), and eke out another 4.5% movespeed with swiftness quints. This is not insignificant. But until you get FH, your CDR is suffering a bit.

Another option might be flat mana quints... I haven't tried them with the 0/21/9 build.

The main idea behind this build is to play defensively and farm creeps. You'll either have 5% or 9.5% extra movespeed (while above 70% health, -3% from that otherwise), which helps in dodging skillshots and maneuvering. The extra resists and health keep you alive. Ryze's combos are still pretty damaging even without runes geared towards it (and the 10% penetration from offense doesn't do much early in the game). So when enemies close, you can still manage to trade well, and back off. (You may even be able to win fights and harass well vs some people. But the purpose of the build is to be able to farm vs just about anyone and still survive.)

Something I haven't tried, would be to go even more defensive, with 6 flat MR glyphs. You won't cap CDR til 18. Probably not a good idea, as you would either be short on CDR most of the time, or popping money on elixers. But as I said, I haven't tried it. Alternatively, you could build an early game monster with 6 flat mana glyphs (leave 3 focus, or 2 celerity if you don't mind missing out on .1% CDR at the end...), flat mana quints, and have the extra health, 5% movespeed, extra defenses, and good offense. (I have played with a 9/0/21 build prior to the mastery remakes, with full flat mana glyphs and flat mana quints, and it tears most champs up early game.)

I usually use flash & teleport with this build (but I don't have focus glyphs, so I have been using swiftness. If I used non-swiftness glyphs, I'd probably want to run ghost).

I'll sum up the pros/cons of this build vs the other one after I discuss the 9/0/21 build. (Well, the pros/cons that I'm aware of. I'm looking for input from others here too.)


The 9/0/21 build

Masteries look like this: http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-le...-4-0-1-3-1&v=2

You can move the point from summoner's wrath into brute force if you aren't using ghost or ignite.

There are two mobile points in the utility tree. Strength of spirit and runic mastery can be moved into meditation if you like. I prefer the boost to hp5 and to buff duration, personally.

About the lower level offense masteries: I think its much better to get bonus dmg vs minions, and bonus AD, than the bonus AP. A couple bonus AP does almost nothing for Ryze. The bonus damage can really help with last hitting though.
If you are a last-hitting master, you can of course put the points into AP, to get an extra point of damage or two on your abilities.

In regards to CDR, your rune options are:
- no CDR runes. You need frozen heart to cap. Without it, you'll be sitting at 35% CDR (with shroud & 5 points in overload)

- 8 focus glyphs. You'll cap at 40% CDR after glacial shrout & 5 in overload.

Note that you don't need any CDR quints, and that even when running no CDR runes, won't need elixers. This opens up the possiblity for more defense (flat MR glyphs), or offense (flat mana glyphs). You can go with movespeed or flat mana in quints.

Flat mana quints and glyphs give you a ton of offense in the early game. Your Q will hit for 98 damage a pop at lvl 1 (+16 or so, I believe). Your W gets +10 or 11 (depending on how much other mana you have). In the early game, that adds up. Not to mention the extra 216 mana from all those runes lets you cast your Q a couple extra times before you run dry.

If you go with CDR and movespeed, you have good movespeed, flexibility in your item choices, and reasonably utility from your masteries.



Build comparison:

0/21/9

Pros: a good bit of extra health, extra defenses, siege commander mastery makes downing towers on your own a bit easier, especially if a minion wave is with you, extra movespeed from masteries, built-in tenacity

Cons: requires full CDR glyphs unless you use elixers, forces rushing FH to cap CDR or using CDR quints, no 5% exp mastery, no summoner spell CD mastery, no 10% pen mastery (becomes a bit more useful later in the game), harder to last hit, less CDR from the start of the game (something around 6% instead of 15% with 9/0/21 at lvl 1)

9/0/21

Pros: no need to rush FH (or can rush FH and have open glyph choices), open quint choice, 5% exp mastery, summoner spell CD mastery, easier to last hit, better CDR from start of the game

Cons: less HP, less defenses, harder to take down towers, no extra 3% movespeed from additional mastery


Personally, I find I prefer 0/21/9

What do you guys think?


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

02-01-2012

I think the differences aren't really big enough to matter all that much.

I use the 0-21-9 approach nowdays because I feel like there is too much junk filler in Utility tree. Defense has more meaty goodness.

The 0-21-9 has 14.1% CDR at 18 assuming CDR blues. That plus 10% Ryze and 15% shroud = almost maxed. Heart = definitely maxed.




If you look at specifics:


9 offense - 10% spell pen is the big one. 4% CDR is solid. First 4 points are awful though. AD or AP basically. 3 or maybe 4 wasted points.

9 defense - excellent. Armor, MR, health over time, and flat health.

9 utility - solid. Significant mana per level tier 1, move speed boost tier 2 and/or meditate for early MP5.


from 9 to 21 offense - Terrible. Bunch of AP related feats. Bleaugh.

from 9 to 21 defense - Solid. specifically:
3 armor
3 magic resist
4 health per level
1 flat health.
1 -1 damage filler.
3 cooldown reduction per level.
3 movespeed booster
2 filler (-1% damage taken)
1 in 3% more health and 10% tenacity.

from 9 to 21 utility - marginal.
3 in max mana
1 summoners whatever
4 movespeed
3 MP5 (a bit underwhelming but whatever)
3 spell vamp (1 health back per 33 damage done. Meh)
0 in 20% buff duration (not that ryze really takes blue ever...)
2 in starting gold for an extra health pot? Meh.
3 in CDR which is strong.
1 in Str of Spirit which is great for ryze... cept I can ONLY GET ONE POINT!!!! RAAGE.
1 in -15% summoner.


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calicfer

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Instead of popping potions or using focus quints, I run boots of lucidity for the 1st half the game. I sell the lucidity boots for sorc boots or merc treads around minute 25.


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
I think the differences aren't really big enough to matter all that much.

I use the 0-21-9 approach nowdays because I feel like there is too much junk filler in Utility tree. Defense has more meaty goodness.

The 0-21-9 has 14.1% CDR at 18 assuming CDR blues. That plus 10% Ryze and 15% shroud = almost maxed. Heart = definitely maxed.
Yes, but at lvl 9 or so, when you are getting shroud, you are only at 10% or so, plus 25, for 35%. So you either miss out on 5% CDR (scaling up slowly as you level up to 18), or you are forced to get FH ASAP. (As opposed to, say, getting a hextech earlier)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
from 9 to 21 utility - marginal.
3 in max mana
1 summoners whatever
4 movespeed
3 MP5 (a bit underwhelming but whatever)
3 spell vamp (1 health back per 33 damage done. Meh)
0 in 20% buff duration (not that ryze really takes blue ever...)
2 in starting gold for an extra health pot? Meh.
3 in CDR which is strong.
1 in Str of Spirit which is great for ryze... cept I can ONLY GET ONE POINT!!!! RAAGE.
1 in -15% summoner.
You don't like the 5% exp mastery? (It does mean you miss out on starting gold & meditation. You can get 1 point in meditation, or 1 point in buff duration.)


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by calicfer View Post
Instead of popping potions or using focus quints, I run boots of lucidity for the 1st half the game. I sell the lucidity boots for sorc boots or merc treads around minute 25.
I'd be very sad to miss out on the extra 20 MPen during the early/mid game. It adds up to a good bit of extra damage.

That said, one of the main reasons I tend to go abyssal over void staff is due to the already high flat mpen I have.

Maybe I'll play around with something like:
0/21/9, 3 flat CDR glyphs.

At lvl 9, you'll have 4% CDR from the defense mastery, 2% from glyphs, 10% from overload, and hopefully 15% from shroud (if you can afford it at that point) for 31. Add in the lucidity boots, and you are maxed.

Being able to save on the FH upgrade, I'll try going for a fastish void staff. After bveil, maybe after hextech too, depending on how things are going. Of course, if I need the armor, can always upgrade to FH, in which case the boots become useless.

For runes, add a bunch of punch to the early game with flat mana glyphs and quints.

With 0/21/9, I'll have the damage from the flat mana, and extra health and reasonable movespeed back (while above 70% health, at least).

After the upgrade to FH (whenever that happens), can switch lucidity to sorc boots.

So, if it looks like AD won't be a problem for a while, and enemies are going to be MR heavy, will get void staff and delay the FH (with early lucidity boots). If AD will be a problem sooner rather than later, will get sorc boots instead of lucidity, and rush the upgrade to FH.

I'm interested to try this out and see how it goes.

One big advantage to the early game damage runes is that you can often zone your opponent in mid. Hell, I find I can often do that with the regular defensive build (CDR runes, movespeed quints), because I outdamage them compared to what they can do to me. WIth even more damage...
Which means you can get a big CS lead, if you are careful to avoid ganks from their jungler.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorikTheMad View Post
Yes, but at lvl 9 or so, when you are getting shroud, you are only at 10% or so, plus 25, for 35%. So you either miss out on 5% CDR (scaling up slowly as you level up to 18), or you are forced to get FH ASAP. (As opposed to, say, getting a hextech earlier)


You don't like the 5% exp mastery? (It does mean you miss out on starting gold & meditation. You can get 1 point in meditation, or 1 point in buff duration.)
OK here is the deal. You do NOT NEED maxed CDR at level 9. You just don't. Nobody is going to stand there while you give em the Q,W,Q,E,Q,R,Q,W,Q,E,Q combo. With 1 second inbetween each Q,X pair and few teamfights at this point, it just doesnt happen.

Instead at about 20% CDR or so you can drop a Q,W,E,Q with practically no delay, which hits pretty hard and occurs pretty fast.


It turns out that most pros will get the sapphire,2pot or boot+3 and get Tear asap. Standard stuff.
BUT, they then get a CATALYST too as this makes em tougher and hit harder, plus gives a lot of free health and mana regen while tear is building.

THEN they get the Shroud. Then they can decide whether to upgrade the Heart for immediate 40% CDR, or limp along at 36% or so until it naturally maxes at 39.2% at 18. But heart is a pretty good upgrade with the aura effect so it is usually gotten fairly fast.

I would certainly NOT get Ionic Boots since Ryze+Heart=30% right there, and you almost can't help but get 8 to 10% CDR from masteries. I sure wouldnt waste gold by buying then selling them.

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Nah, I am not a big fan of the 5% XP. Its only 5%. Meh. It gets you to level a few seconds before they do. Ryze doesn't really get a BOMB at 6, so I don't see much point in beating them there.
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Why would you RUSH a void staff?!? You have 10 MPen from red, 20 from sorc shoes. 24 conditional from your E. They would need over 100 magic resistance for a void to be better than Abyssal just on the MPen alone. Plus abyssal gives aura effect to allies and 57 MR.

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Mana runes are garbage. No non-Ryze would ever ever ever consider them because they are so ****. At 11 mana per glyph they are an insult. Your whole glyph page and a seperate 6300IP runepage just to get 100 mana?
Thats like 1.5 extra Qs, adding 8 whole damage to your Q.

Granted, CDR doesn't exactly do much for you either, but I'd take Magic Resistance over mana if you skipped CDR.

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Ryze never ever zones any competant mid. Most mids have further range than him and mid is too short to zone anyone. That is just giving their jungler an easy kill.


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

02-01-2012

I haven't really watched any pro ryze vids... do they build 0/21/9 usually? (I assume they go tear -> T2 boots -> catalyst -> shroud?)
With full CDR glyphs?

Am I a fool for wanting flat mana runes?

I guess I could also just skip the lucidity boots altogether.

I'd have 16% CDR at lvl 9 (no shroud, 3 focus glyhps), and I'd cap much lower (35ish) at lvl 18, til I upgrade heart.


Also, if you are going to fire off your combo like that without waiting between W & E to get off another Q, why root first? Why not E first to reduce their MR? If you are Q->W->Q->E->Q, then sure, you root to have time to close the distance, then Q->E, then before they get out of range get off another Q. But if you aren't going to throw the Q in the middle, why not Q-E-W-Q?


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corallein

Senior Member

02-01-2012

I dunno, casters don't usually go over masteries and runes.

I know bigfatjiji's guide lists either all flat mana, or running with defensive seals/glyphs (MR blues, health or armor yellows). And lists 0/21/9 masteries. I don't know what other pros run (eg. Curse's Nyjacky or M5's Alex), but I highly doubt that anyone uses CDR runes on any champion.
CDR simply isn't something you want to sacrifice other stats for.

Q is used first to get it on cooldown. W is used second to root them and prevent escapes (Flash). Sometimes you use W first to get the root ASAP - usually so that teammates can then pile onto the hapless enemy. The only reason to use E before either is if your team has used other CC already on the target.


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
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Why would you RUSH a void staff?!? You have 10 MPen from red, 20 from sorc shoes. 24 conditional from your E. They would need over 100 magic resistance for a void to be better than Abyssal just on the MPen alone. Plus abyssal gives aura effect to allies and 57 MR.

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Mana runes are garbage. No non-Ryze would ever ever ever consider them because they are so ****. At 11 mana per glyph they are an insult. Your whole glyph page and a seperate 6300IP runepage just to get 100 mana?
Thats like 1.5 extra Qs, adding 8 whole damage to your Q.

Granted, CDR doesn't exactly do much for you either, but I'd take Magic Resistance over mana if you skipped CDR.

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Ryze never ever zones any competant mid. Most mids have further range than him and mid is too short to zone anyone. That is just giving their jungler an easy kill.

Rushiing void: I was saying IF I went with lucidity boots. Since E is leveled last (although JiJi's guide suggests getting it before W... I find that odd, he didn't explain why), you'll end up with pretty low MPen. But I'm no longer considering this.

Mana runes: I disagree on them being garbage. If you go full flat mana blues & quints, that is 214 mana. +16 damage to Q, +11 or so to W. It adds up pretty fast, and gives you a couple extra shots before you run dry on mana.

Perhaps "zone" is the wrong word here... but I find that I can often get my opponent pretty low on health if they aren't careful (below 30%), while keeping my health above 70%. That is with 0/21/9 and CDR blues, movespeed quints. With that situation, they can't farm as effectively, for fear of a flash ignite + QWEQ finishing them off.

With mana runes, this would be even more exaggerated. You can get many champs health to dangerous levels faster. Yes, you have to watch out for the jungler. Yes, it means you are playing more aggressively... but I like playing a little aggressively.

And if you are playing solo top, you can zone. Its nice.


I already own the mana runes, so...

Now, later in the game, is 214 mana better than the movespeed & flat MR glyphs? Not by a long shot.
Early in the game, which is better?

Well, if you are playing safe, staying back, and farming (like a good boy), then the movespeed and MR is better.

If you want to try for an early kill or two, or want to be able to deny some CS by keeping your opponent low on health, then the offensive option is better, I think.

In any case, I'm going to give it a shot and not worry about the CDR, and see what happens.

I'll upgrade to FH when I get to it, and cap out a 2% or so shy of 40%.


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corallein

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Leveling E first is more damage at a longer range.
Leveling W first is a longer root.


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