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@ Sauron: I want comments on Vladimir

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Kiddalee

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Darmival:
oo taric good?

whats a solid build for him ?


It's entirely situational. Aegis is the only thing I get consistently. Taric can be an initiator, aurabot, fatmage or camper... all while supporting.


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Darmival

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Kiddalee:
It's entirely situational. Aegis is the only thing I get consistently. Taric can be an initiator, aurabot, fatmage or camper... all while supporting.


I agree aegis is pretty core for him


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Sauron

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Isysar:
So, like it or not, I pretty much troll the match history of all the players on Sauron/Nekrogen/Zaberz/MMKD/MagiMelkor's team several times a week.

Sauron, I notice you've been playing a LOT of Vladimir on dominion this week. My questions are these:

1) Do you play him top or bottom?
2) How does he compare against other tanky AP characters on Dominion?
3) Do people try to counter you with the Mortal Wounds (or w/e it's called) healing reduction debuff?

and 4) What summoners do you use?

Actually, and 5) Why Warden's mail? (my guess is Zhonya's is too expensive, you already have pool to dodge ****/escape, Warden gives the same armor for less than half the price and the 20 health regen is buffed by Tides of Blood)

Anyone else is of course welcome to voice their thoughts on Vladimir.


Yeah sorry, I was asleep.

Quote:
1) Do you play him top or bottom?


I'm mostly playing Vlad bot because Nekrogen and I are the two bottom laners in the team and lately Nekrogen has had a life (what a loser) so he hasn't been on much. From what I've experienced so far he's viable in either lane, but does have trouble against some common bot laners like Ryze who can root at 100 range greater than Vlad and then back off.

That said, Vlad is still a great minion pusher even if he can't trade against champs like that.

Quote:
2) How does he compare against other tanky AP characters on Dominion?


I really don't build him tanky. There's the MR from SV, sure, but I don't get Rylai's until way later (sometimes not even at all). I don't mean to say Rylai's shouldn't be rushed, but I'm finding that Vlad can get away with purchasing a bunch of minor items and come off with a strong early game build that can be upgraded. My buying Abyssal Scepter is a situational thing -- normally that would go to Warden's or Rylai's.

The thing is, that while his spells are close range and he's got that coolpool thing, you still want to play him on the sidelines of a fight like any other mage. His escape ability has a nasty cooldown and using it in a fight can sometimes be treacherous.

Quote:
3) Do people try to counter you with the Mortal Wounds (or w/e it's called) healing reduction debuff?


Good players do, and it is somewhat effective. I try to keep Vlad at a hard-to-get distance in fights so if its a melee using EC on me they won't benefit the full duration. For short durations of it such as Ignite, I sometimes wait until its worn off before Q'ing or picking up a health pack in a fight.

Quote:
4) What summoners do you use?


I've been running Ignite/Revive. Ignite because sometimes that gets me a kill when I don't have Rylai's to slow them down, and it also works in situational fights. But honestly, you could make the same argument for Exhaust, and either seem to work just fine.

Revive because chances are I'm going to pool wrongly at some point and no heal is going to save me.

Quote:
5) Why Warden's mail?


I buy Warden's for the passive, actually. I mean, sure I got it because I needed armor, but I picked it over other choices for its passive. When someone like Pantheon W's to you and attacks once, and if this thing procs, its basically a get-out-of-jail free card. The slow is incredibly strong and you'd be surprised at how many players of tanks and mages will autoattack you between their cooldowns. Whenever Warden's procs, you end up being able to save your pool use for something else like a Sion stun. Its basically the anti-Phage.

The fact that Warden's can be upgraded in a longer game just adds to its value. So can Glacial Shroud, but that gives mana so its a bit of a wasted item on Vlad (That's not to say I haven't built FH on manaless champs before).


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Isysar

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Sauron:
Yeah sorry, I was asleep.



I'm mostly playing Vlad bot because Nekrogen and I are the two bottom laners in the team and lately Nekrogen has had a life (what a loser) so he hasn't been on much. From what I've experienced so far he's viable in either lane, but does have trouble against some common bot laners like Ryze who can root at 100 range greater than Vlad and then back off.

That said, Vlad is still a great minion pusher even if he can't trade against champs like that.



I really don't build him tanky. There's the MR from SV, sure, but I don't get Rylai's until way later (sometimes not even at all). I don't mean to say Rylai's shouldn't be rushed, but I'm finding that Vlad can get away with purchasing a bunch of minor items and come off with a strong early game build that can be upgraded. My buying Abyssal Scepter is a situational thing -- normally that would go to Warden's or Rylai's.

The thing is, that while his spells are close range and he's got that coolpool thing, you still want to play him on the sidelines of a fight like any other mage. His escape ability has a nasty cooldown and using it in a fight can sometimes be treacherous.



Good players do, and it is somewhat effective. I try to keep Vlad at a hard-to-get distance in fights so if its a melee using EC on me they won't benefit the full duration. For short durations of it such as Ignite, I sometimes wait until its worn off before Q'ing or picking up a health pack in a fight.



I've been running Ignite/Revive. Ignite because sometimes that gets me a kill when I don't have Rylai's to slow them down, and it also works in situational fights. But honestly, you could make the same argument for Exhaust, and either seem to work just fine.

Revive because chances are I'm going to pool wrongly at some point and no heal is going to save me.



I buy Warden's for the passive, actually. I mean, sure I got it because I needed armor, but I picked it over other choices for its passive. When someone like Pantheon W's to you and attacks once, and if this thing procs, its basically a get-out-of-jail free card. The slow is incredibly strong and you'd be surprised at how many players of tanks and mages will autoattack you between their cooldowns. Whenever Warden's procs, you end up being able to save your pool use for something else like a Sion stun. Its basically the anti-Phage.

The fact that Warden's can be upgraded in a longer game just adds to its value. So can Glacial Shroud, but that gives mana so its a bit of a wasted item on Vlad (That's not to say I haven't built FH on manaless champs before).



Thank you very much sir. I have no complaints about sleep. Thanks for answering this.

1) Your thoughts on Vlad's viability in either lane basically matched my own. Vlad indeed can farm minions and has great sustain, but has a few harsher matchups. Have you ever played him against a hiemerdinger?

2) Excuse me for using the phrase "tanky" there. I agree that any mage functions best from the sidelines of a fight as you say. I consider "tanky mages" to be people like Mordekaiser, Swain, Ryze, Kennen, Rumble, Gragas, Vlad, etc that are more sustained damage based, and less out right burst. These champs often have some sustain of their own with him, and are more about Survivability, spell vamp and CDR. I know you haven't been building Vlad extremely tanky b/c he doesn't need it right away. As you've seen yourself, Sorcs, Haunting Guise, WotA, a revolver, SV and a defense item are extremely effective on him.

3) About what I expected. Just wait out the debuff if you can

4) Hmm, Ignite/Revive. You make a good case for both, and that's probably better than the Heal/Exhaust. I've been running. I'm curious what your thoughts are on Heal for Vladimir. Unnecessary? Further countered by EC?

5) I guess I hadn't thought about how good the passive is. The item sure is cheap at 1350. I guess it's a harder item to notice. I'll have to give it a try. For what it's worth, the 20 HP5 on it does get affected by your Tides of Blood Buff and the +10% from SV too, so it's even better at prolonged sustain. (which vlad is great at anyways)

Cool. I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks man.


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Sauron

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Isysar:
1) Your thoughts on Vlad's viability in either lane basically matched my own. Vlad indeed can farm minions and has great sustain, but has a few harsher matchups. Have you ever played him against a hiemerdinger?


I haven't. I come across very few Heimer players. I've only seen one in my last 50 games (JCripps8 I believe).

Quote:
Isysar:
4) Hmm, Ignite/Revive. You make a good case for both, and that's probably better than the Heal/Exhaust. I've been running. I'm curious what your thoughts are on Heal for Vladimir. Unnecessary? Further countered by EC?


While Heal scales with E, I find Revive is much better as a fallback for an inescapable focus. Its mostly personal preference, but I feel Heal is taken just to boost an early game 1v1 fight while Revive can halt a 1v2 capture at any time in the game.


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Isysar

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Sauron:
I haven't. I come across very few Heimer players. I've only seen one in my last 50 games (JCripps8 I believe).



While Heal scales with E, I find Revive is much better as a fallback for an inescapable focus. Its mostly personal preference, but I feel Heal is taken just to boost an early game 1v1 fight while Revive can halt a 1v2 capture at any time in the game.


It's so interesting watching your streams because the Tryndamere, Akali, Jax, Heimerdinger, Poppy, Shaco, and Rammus (granted, you ban these last 2) that are so prevalent at my level I've never seen up at your level on the Monday night tournaments. In your opinion, what makes heimerdinger so underplayed at your level? Are Jarvan/Maokai/Yorick/Ryze/Cassiopeia/Gragas/etc just stronger bottom picks?


You make a good case for Heal, especially since I've seen the effectiveness of Revive that your team uses. Do you think Heal has a place in Dominion at all? On someone top lane perhaps?


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Sauron

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Isysar:
It's so interesting watching your streams because the Tryndamere, Akali, Jax, Heimerdinger, Poppy, Shaco, and Rammus (granted, you ban these last 2) that are so prevalent at my level I've never seen up at your level on the Monday night tournaments. In your opinion, what makes heimerdinger so underplayed at your level? Are Jarvan/Maokai/Yorick/Ryze/Cassiopeia/Gragas/etc just stronger bottom picks?


Heimer is all about capturing points, and is very easy to gank with gap closer abilities. There's also ways to juke his turret AIs into not holding targets. He's a good champ, but most people want someone with more utility or more mobility. Granted, I haven't played him much.

Quote:
Isysar:
You make a good case for Heal, especially since I've seen the effectiveness of Revive that your team uses. Do you think Heal has a place in Dominion at all? On someone top lane perhaps?


Heal is definately a top lane spell. It does have its place, and we do sometimes run it on tanky champs.


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Isysar

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Sauron:
Heimer is all about capturing points, and is very easy to gank with gap closer abilities. There's also ways to juke his turret AIs into not holding targets. He's a good champ, but most people want someone with more utility or more mobility. Granted, I haven't played him much.



Heal is definately a top lane spell. It does have its place, and we do sometimes run it on tanky champs.


Thanks for the thoughts. I'm no Hiemer player myself; I just see a lot of him around 1609 Dom. Elo. I agree with your analysis; He seems most strong when the other team has a solid handle on top lane, where my team is pressured too much to send one bot to gank. But when you can gank him, you're right.

Heal makes sense up top too.

My last questions for you today are about "underused" summoner spells, i.e. one's I haven't seen people use much, or use effectively. What are your thoughts on

Smite
Cleanse
Clarity
Promote

I feel smite and clarity are just bad, and the other 2 could be good in certain situations, but a more general pick like Exhaust is nearly always stronger.

EDIT: And actually, I'm wondering if you stream at all.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

01-30-2012

I usually run vlad Ignite+Garrison.

Cause I know at some point I will be 2v1 tower dove and will win with pool


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Sauron

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Isysar:
Thanks for the thoughts. I'm no Hiemer player myself; I just see a lot of him around 1609 Dom. Elo. I agree with your analysis; He seems most strong when the other team has a solid handle on top lane, where my team is pressured too much to send one bot to gank. But when you can gank him, you're right.

Heal makes sense up top too.

My last questions for you today are about "underused" summoner spells, i.e. one's I haven't seen people use much, or use effectively. What are your thoughts on

Smite
Cleanse
Clarity
Promote

I feel smite and clarity are just bad, and the other 2 could be good in certain situations, but a more general pick like Exhaust is nearly always stronger.

EDIT: And actually, I'm wondering if you stream at all.


Smite I don't feel is good at all. Its easier to just picker a champ with more aoe if you want to push bot lane a lot. It can have a clutch use against heimer, but so can ignite.

Cleanse is viable and a great counter if you expect exhaust in bottom lane. Its great if you're a permaslow champ like Skarner.

Clarity is just... bad. I don't think I need to go into why.

Promote I feel can be replaced with Ignite. It does the same thing -- out-pressuring the bottom lane opponent -- but has many more places where it can be used. Also, the promoted minion dies just as fast as a regular minion once the tower is neutralized.

And no, I don't stream, but you can usually find me on Nekrogen's and the NESL streams when they're up.


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