Cain, The Forgotten Shield

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CountEvilBanana

Member

03-11-2012

lol may i suggest his shield do something other than shield from dmg? like make their attacks slow or something? i mean janna's shiled also gives attack dmg
soo, and also his taunt is op, any fed ad carry that is taunted by him instantly dies... with thornmail it's 110% dmg returned as magic dmg... to much, a master yi would die in literally like 3 hits.and buff his ap ratio on his shield 30% is almost nothing, especially when he is mainly a tank. also his passive so bs, all you have to do is get tones of armor... and bingo u get hp and mr free. a thornmail+randuins+frozen heart+nynjatabi+sunfire+atma's.=129 hp and mr... now that is almost no hp... but a ton of mr, lower the mr by 2 and the hp he gets x3


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CountEvilBanana

Member

03-11-2012

nevermind, i mean make it 4 mr per 15 armor and 45 hp for every 15 armor


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CountEvilBanana

Member

03-11-2012

no still op.... lol make it 20 hp per 15 and 3 mr per 15. now these r just suggestions, lol.


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Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

03-11-2012

I have Icraig33 telling me that the W makes no sense and I have EvilBananasRule telling me that it's too OP... I feel like I'm at an impasse.

To Icraig33: I always felt that the duration of the taunt was quite small at level 1 so I'll see what I can do to extend it. Also, I think you misunderstood the 50% reduced damage. It sounded like you thought that Cain's next attack does half damage, but really it's that the taunted enemy's attacks do 50% to him. I'll see what I can do to make the ability a little more clear. If I'm misunderstood and something else was misinterpreted, please don't hesitate to explain.

To EvilBananasRule: I'm well aware of Cain's W's capability to shut down high AD champion such as Yi, but personally, I feel that it will make AD champs think twice before attacking Cain. Also keep in mind that Cain would be dealing 80% of the damage dealt to him which has already been reduced to 50% as well as the damage prevented from any extra armor added by items. 80% of 50%, you do the math. I also understand your concerns with his passive giving him so much extra for just adding armor, though the point of Cain was to have a Champion that could last. Despite the bonus MR, Cain's biggest weakness is still AP champs. This brings me to the point that W is somewhat a double edged sword. While it will help Cain against AD champs, it could very well kill him if he were to taunt an AP champ as to bring them in range of their abilities once the taunt is finished (Which is one of the reasons why I constructed Cain's Q to knock both him and the enemy away fdrom each other). Keep this in mind: Though AP champions' auto-attacks still do physical damage like any other auto-attack, they'll most likely not focus on building AD on an AP champ, which will end up having W do almost NOTHING to AP champs. While it's OP against AD champs, it's extremely UP against AP champs. This, in my opinion anyway, makes it balanced.

Thanks to both of you for your opinions and criticisms. I'll be sure to make any changes that I may find necessary.


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wants to sleep

Senior Member

03-12-2012

I'm not trying to be mean here, at all. But with any other high CC champ... he has WAY too much CC. Like.. with a Kennen you can stun lock an enemy for something like 15 seconds. You have 7 seconds of CC in his kit at rank 5, and his stun has a >7 second cooldown with CDR, and his taunt has >8 second CD with CDR. 10 seconds of stun lock is... no other champion even comes close. IIRC Leona is the highest CC currently, and she can CC for ~4 seconds in a row. You need to look at this.


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Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

03-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blínd View Post
I'm not trying to be mean here, at all. But with any other high CC champ... he has WAY too much CC. Like.. with a Kennen you can stun lock an enemy for something like 15 seconds. You have 7 seconds of CC in his kit at rank 5, and his stun has a >7 second cooldown with CDR, and his taunt has >8 second CD with CDR. 10 seconds of stun lock is... no other champion even comes close. IIRC Leona is the highest CC currently, and she can CC for ~4 seconds in a row. You need to look at this.
I understand what you're saying, but here's the thing. The stun lock on Cain's Q (which is the only ability he has that includes a stun) is a flat 1 second, the taunt duration is only average 3 seconds on max, and and his ult's max duration is 3 seconds. Plus, this is kind of assuming if one were to play Cain and just spam his abilities (which is not the way to play him), he'd be wide open for 10+ seconds from any form of attack. I know where you're saying about his CC being a bit on the high side, but I have to disagree with you in terms of it being "WAY too much".

I also want to know what you think I should change if this wasn't able to convince you. Should I maybe increase the cooldown or maybe just remove the stun from Cain's Q? I want to get better, so please tell me what I should do after to the concept you give criticism.


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Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

03-12-2012

*Updated*
Increased the cooldown of Q, W, and E by 1 second and R by 5 seconds.
Replaced Q's one second stun with a 1 second silence.

After looking over Blind's criticisms, I couldn't help but feel that he was right in the end. Let's just see where this goes.


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Mushubaby

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Senior Member

03-12-2012

decent concept, except the passive. the problem with it? imagine a build for cain that would make him extremely tanky at relatively low cost: thorn mail, thorn mail, thorn mail, ninja tabi, thorn mail, force of nature...


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Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

03-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushubaby View Post
decent concept, except the passive. the problem with it? imagine a build for cain that would make him extremely tanky at relatively low cost: thorn mail, thorn mail, thorn mail, ninja tabi, thorn mail, force of nature...
Yeah, everyone keeps on complaining that anyone can build huge on armor and receive an OP amount of bonus health and MR. I just can't seem to find the right numbers to have the passive be fair, but at the same time show that it's actually there. What do you recommend I should change the numbers to?


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Extra Joker

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Senior Member

03-13-2012

Of course I remember the Forgotten Shield, lore and art concept wise one of the better concepts I've seen. As for him being a member of the White Flame, maybe. His refusal to join the Black Rose shows he's not evil but his quest for justice has been twisted into seeking revenge by something the White Flame would want to destroy. They would accept his help in seeking such corruption.

White Flame skin? Maybe what he would look like if whatever corrupted him was destroyed, most of his armor reverted back to its natural state with the exception of his shield, clawed gauntlet and his helmet would maintain the corrupted shape but the lower half of his face exposed (with a smirk) and maybe white plate with red detailing. It would show that the corruption has become his weapon against evil but it no longer controls him.

If you want I could add a link to Cain on the Faction thread as a honorary member.