Cain, The Forgotten Shield

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

04-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumplefugly View Post
Maybe I could have been more clear. What I meant to say is that Cain's kit doesn't seem to emphasize his prowess with a shield AND his dark magic. His only ability that incorporates both the shield and the dark magic is his Q. The rest of his kit is just him manipulating dark energy to produce an effect. This isn't necessarily a problem but it does leave me wondering why this big warrior with a giant shield is only using his shield with one ability.

Your concerns about my suggestion for his Q are duly noted. I completely understand where you're coming from in regards to trolls; I was merely offering an idea off the top of my head.

My issues about the movement speed bonus are due to the fact that 17 movement speed is a negligible amount, especially during the late game. He's really susceptible to kiting from any ranged champ with red buff. There's a reason that flat movement speeds bonuses in certain champions' kits (Sivir, MF, Vayne, etc.) provide anywhere from 40-70 movement speed while the rest have percentage-based increases. In my opinion, if his Q is going to provide a flat movement speed increase, it should scale from 30/40/50/60/70 movement speed. If it's going to do a percentage-based movement speed increase, it should scale from 15/20/25/30/35%.

Be warned, if you do this, then Cain's Q needs to have a set duration for how long he'll run at the target, otherwise it'll be ridiculously OP.

As for his W, I'm just confused that Cain gets passive magic resistance from both his passive and this ability. I'm also confused that it does an AoE silence just like his ultimate. I'd be more than willing to suggest an idea for a move but I need to know just what your design philosophy for this champion is. What playstyle are you shooting for? Can you point to any existing characters in other mediums that may have served as inspiration for this champ?

I think his E just needs a ratio boost to be perfectly honest because I don't see any reason why I would build AP items on this champ. Making his shield scale really well off of AP is a good way to encourage playing him in more of a support role. I would say bump the ratio up to 0.6 - 0.8. Also, I just want to make sure I understand the ability correctly: Cain can only cast the shield on an ally but he'll also put a shield for himself too? Or can Cain choose to just shield himself and forgo shielding an ally? What is the trade-off for using the shield on Cain instead of an ally and vice-versa? Currently it just seems to shield two champions with no real drawbacks.

As for his ult, I just think it's odd to emphasize Cain's dark magic over his shield proficiency instead of creating an ultimate ability for him that incorporates both of those aspects of his character while also fulfilling his role as a tank/support champion. Unfortunately, nothing really comes to my mind for an alternate ultimate ability.

His innate, on the other hand, I can totally help you out with. Here's an idea:

Phalanx Fighting - Cain gains 4/6/8 armor and magic resistance for each allied champion within 500 range and grants them half of this bonus as a passive aura.

Anyway, I think you have a solid idea. I hope my feedback has been helpful.
Thanks for the feedback. Here's what I have to say.

When I said that Cain would use his shield AND his magic, I didn't mean that he would use at the same prowess as the other. Plus the shield is meant to be more of a defense tool while his magic gauntlet is his attacking tool. Cain doesn't rely primarily on his shield for dealing damage, but he'll use it for that purpose if the moment comes (Shield Shock). I hope that this makes at least a little bit of sense.

I now agree with you on Q's bonus movement speed. I'm not good with number in terms of measurement time and distance, so I wasn't sure what would be a good speed conversion. What Ms amount would you recommend for this (remember, I want to keep the chasing effect, and i might have it be a flat MS boost)?

You do know that that W's bonus MR isn't permanent, right? I wanted to give him a bit more MR because since people will be stacking armor due to his passive, MR will, despite the passive, be his main weakness. You even said it yourself on your previous post that the MR gained from the passive isn't that much. I just wanted to cope with that weakness by given him a little more MR. As for the common AoE, its' not like there's never been a champion that has more than one similar ability. At least I didn't make how they were delivered exactly the same (W is simply an AoE shock wave around Cain while R is a projectile which expands into an AoE).
I changed the silence to a slow as you suggested, but I'd really like to see what kind of ability you can come up with for Cain. Cain's main strategy is mainly to be able to throw himself into a team fight, and cripple the enemies with heavy CC for his team to pick themselves back up, and Cain would take minimal damage in the process. He's meant to be at his best mid game, which is when the team fights begin to commence.

I see to bumping up Cain's AP ratio. The common item build would have to be Half AP and half Armor, but I understand what you're saying. As for how it works, Cain is able to cast E on himself, but the amount would be no different if he were to cast the shield on an ally and still receive a shield for himself. It's kind of like how Nunu's Blood Boil (W) works. This was to emphasize that you are indeed able to use it on allies without any drawbacks, and it would be somewhat stupid to only use it on yourself right when an ally joins up with you.

I know that the ult doesn't incorporate the shield, but this brings me more to my point. The shield is just a defense tool, a bulwark if you will, to incorporate the fact he's a champion made for defense (with the exception of Q).

Interesting idea for an innate. I'll put it on the opening post as a possibility and see if anyone else has anything to say about it.

Thanks for the feedback. Just keep in mind that Cain is much more than just a knight with a big shield. If you come up with an idea for his W that uses a shield, I'd most appreciate it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

04-19-2012

*Updated!*
Posted "Phalanx Fighting" as an optional idea for the innate. Thanks to Rumplefugly for the idea.
Which innate do you prefer? Leave a comment and vote for Cain's innate.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Liberty Prime

Senior Member

04-19-2012

I like this champion. He's not cheesy and doesn't seem like he's cut out of some other game or show like half the champions you see in this forum.

Im tempted to spend time drawing you a very detailed picture for your champion. I planned to spend tommorow drawing a dark-knight-esque person anyway...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

04-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoteriosJohnson View Post
I like this champion. He's not cheesy and doesn't seem like he's cut out of some other game or show like half the champions you see in this forum.

Im tempted to spend time drawing you a very detailed picture for your champion. I planned to spend tommorow drawing a dark-knight-esque person anyway...
Thanks man, I really appreciate it!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Extra Joker

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kyleshorse View Post
(Possible Innate) Phalanx Fighting: Cain gains 4/6/8 armor and magic resistance for each champion within 500 range and grants them half this bonus as a passive aura.
I vote for this one. It really works for a support tank and the name itself is cool.

P.S. When are you gonna draw the White Flame skin?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

04-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra Joker View Post
I vote for this one. It really works for a support tank and the name itself is cool.

P.S. When are you gonna draw the White Flame skin?
All right. That's one vote for Phalanx Fighting

Also, sorry that it's been a while. I got the image drawn, but I don't really have a digital camera. The images that are on the opening post were taken by a friend of mine on his camera phone. Once I gain access to a camera, I'll post it on your thread as soon as I can.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

morophobutterfly

Junior Member

04-19-2012

Every single time a read a character concept it's op as no tomorrow yours included. His q can potentially do 130 damage at level one provides a knock back and a dash seems too strong. His w says "Cain gains 4/8/12/16/20 bonus magic resist for 5 seconds" if you only gain it for 5 seconds then it's not passive. Passive is always get the bonus. You have to always get the bonus or get it for 5 seconds after activating it; make this clear. Not only that the aoe is way to big bring it down to like 300-350 area. E you did right nice simple boring nothing wrong with it. The ult does way to much damage 390 damage at rank 1 is crazy you might want to simplify the spell it will be easier to keep the damage appropriate i would suggest something like Ziggs ult with less damage since his ult comes with cc. Also I would suggest to change the cc to 1 thing rather then 2 polymorph would be the closet thing to a blind silence but a stun may be more appropriate for your character adjust the damage accordingly to the type of cc it is, a silence it can do more damage then if it was a stun.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

04-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by morophobutterfly View Post
Every single time a read a character concept it's op as no tomorrow yours included. His q can potentially do 130 damage at level one provides a knock back and a dash seems too strong. His w says "Cain gains 4/8/12/16/20 bonus magic resist for 5 seconds" if you only gain it for 5 seconds then it's not passive. Passive is always get the bonus. You have to always get the bonus or get it for 5 seconds after activating it; make this clear. Not only that the aoe is way to big bring it down to like 300-350 area. E you did right nice simple boring nothing wrong with it. The ult does way to much damage 390 damage at rank 1 is crazy you might want to simplify the spell it will be easier to keep the damage appropriate i would suggest something like Ziggs ult with less damage since his ult comes with cc. Also I would suggest to change the cc to 1 thing rather then 2 polymorph would be the closet thing to a blind silence but a stun may be more appropriate for your character adjust the damage accordingly to the type of cc it is, a silence it can do more damage then if it was a stun.
I feel like there are some things I need to go over with you.

Q: It's not a dash, it's a chase. Also, the only scenario of this doing 130 at rank one is if the player builds AP when they're meant to be building armor. Though it can be done, it's highly not recommended.

W: I think it's clear enough as it is. When you activate W you will receive an extra amount of magic resist for five seconds. I'll admit that the AoE is quite large, so I'll size it down.

E: I believe that all champions should have at least one basic ability, so thanks.... I think (boring?).

R: Okay, the damage done the target and the damage done to surrounding by enemies are SEPARATE, in case that was confusing you. Though it may do a large amount of damage at rank one, keep in mind that the ranking scaling and AP scaling is small compared to other AP ults. Also, the purpose of the ult is not only to deal decent damage but to shut down the enemy team and leave them vulnerable to attack. I don't want it to have a stun, otherwise it'll pretty much just be a projectile version of Amumu's ult.

All in all, you're argument is invalid. My champion is no stronger than any other champion on the roster. Cain CAN be played as an AP carry, but he's meant to be played a tank. If players want to go offensive and have low armor and MR, than that's their choice. But even so, Cain's NOT OP. He can be strong, but not OP. Maybe you need to take a look at the damage amounts of other AP champions. Their damage outputs and scalings are no different from Cain's.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

morophobutterfly

Junior Member

04-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kyleshorse View Post
I feel like there are some things I need to go over with you.

Q: It's not a dash, it's a chase. Also, the only scenario of this doing 130 at rank one is if the player builds AP when they're meant to be building armor. Though it can be done, it's highly not recommended.

W: I think it's clear enough as it is. When you activate W you will receive an extra amount of magic resist for five seconds. I'll admit that the AoE is quite large, so I'll size it down.

E: I believe that all champions should have at least one basic ability, so thanks.... I think (boring?).

R: Okay, the damage done the target and the damage done to surrounding by enemies are SEPARATE, in case that was confusing you. Though it may do a large amount of damage at rank one, keep in mind that the ranking scaling and AP scaling is small compared to other AP ults. Also, the purpose of the ult is not only to deal decent damage but to shut down the enemy team and leave them vulnerable to attack. I don't want it to have a stun, otherwise it'll pretty much just be a projectile version of Amumu's ult.

All in all, you're argument is invalid. My champion is no stronger than any other champion on the roster. Cain CAN be played as an AP carry, but he's meant to be played a tank. If players want to go offensive and have low armor and MR, than that's their choice. But even so, Cain's NOT OP. He can be strong, but not OP. Maybe you need to take a look at the damage amounts of other AP champions. Their damage outputs and scalings are no different from Cain's.
Okay, maybe I wasn't clear enough with some of my issues with him. If you press q you could set it to just go to the other side of a player so you revive the 50 damage from being in his path and the 80 damage from colliding giving 130 damage with 0 ap. I took another look at w you will want to scale the damage down or make it do half damage to minions or else jungle speeds will be way to fast. And R I don't care if the damage is in two separate chunks 390 damage is way to much for an ult the silences and blinds all targets to compare Leona and Amumu with similar ults only do 150 magic damage so do you think 390 is maybe to much? And finally complaint about you. You said at the very first post "Before you do anything, read this. I'm well aware that people are clicking and viewing this thread. I'm not sure what you're reason IS for going to this thread, but let me tell you this. If you're truly here because you want to READ this concept, please tell me what you think, what you like and/or don't like, etc. I'm sorry, but I'm just sick of it when people are just going into a thread, not even taking the time to say anything, and just up and leave. I want to get better at this. So please tell what you think of this concept." so I tell you your champion is to too strong and you have the nerve just to basically disregard everything I say and tell me. "All in all, you're argument is invalid." Well that's what I get for trying to help.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

04-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by morophobutterfly View Post
Okay, maybe I wasn't clear enough with some of my issues with him. If you press q you could set it to just go to the other side of a player so you revive the 50 damage from being in his path and the 80 damage from colliding giving 130 damage with 0 ap. I took another look at w you will want to scale the damage down or make it do half damage to minions or else jungle speeds will be way to fast. And R I don't care if the damage is in two separate chunks 390 damage is way to much for an ult the silences and blinds all targets to compare Leona and Amumu with similar ults only do 150 magic damage so do you think 390 is maybe to much? And finally complaint about you. You said at the very first post "Before you do anything, read this. I'm well aware that people are clicking and viewing this thread. I'm not sure what you're reason IS for going to this thread, but let me tell you this. If you're truly here because you want to READ this concept, please tell me what you think, what you like and/or don't like, etc. I'm sorry, but I'm just sick of it when people are just going into a thread, not even taking the time to say anything, and just up and leave. I want to get better at this. So please tell what you think of this concept." so I tell you your champion is to too strong and you have the nerve just to basically disregard everything I say and tell me. "All in all, you're argument is invalid." Well that's what I get for trying to help.
Okay, I'm sorry for what I said about your argument. I'm just not that good with numbers and I didn't take your thoughts that much to mind.

Q: After your explanation, I now know what you're talking about. I guess I can get rid of the passing damage.

W: I'll have it do half the damage to minions and monster. This may influence players to not jungle with Cain, and I''m really fine with that.

R: I toned down the ult after taking your words into more consideration. Though I might need to tone it down just a little more.

Myself: I'm sincerely sorry for what I said, and I hope you understand that. I know that I said in the opening post that I'm looking for criticism, but I just really hate how people would say that's something's bad or OP and don't even give me suggestions on how to fix them (your latest post being an exception).