Cain, The Forgotten Shield

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Dues Pater

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Senior Member

04-15-2012

Nice idea but i think its role should be changed and and some of his skills should be buffed

Role: bruiser, Melee, Fighter


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Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

04-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dues Pater View Post
Nice idea but i think its role should be changed and and some of his skills should be buffed

Role: bruiser, Melee, Fighter
But.... he's a Support Tank.


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BlackDoveWar

Senior Member

04-16-2012

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Originally Posted by Lord Kyleshorse View Post
What part of the ult should be nerfed?
Just the silence duation from 2/2.5/3 to 1.75/2.25/2.75


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Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

04-16-2012

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Originally Posted by BlackDoveWar View Post
Just the silence duation from 2/2.5/3 to 1.75/2.25/2.75
..... Alright. Seems fair enough.


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Rumplefugly

Member

04-16-2012

Cain's abilities seems really weird for a shield-based character. Only his Q seems to emphasize the fact that this guy uses his shield, the rest of his abilities sound like they could be on a completely different character. Do you want this guy to be an armored fighter that fights with his shield? or do you want him to be some kind of dark energy manipulating knight? His kit seems to heavily fall into the latter category, which makes me wonder what the shield is for besides the charge on his Q. I'd like to see his abilities make more use of his shield considering his title is "The Forgotten Shield."

I like his Q, though I think it would be cool if it could affect an ally champion (like Jax's Leap Strike) so Cain could use it to reposition allies to put them out of harm's way. This would fit with the tank/support role while also give the player a choice of how they want to use his Q: Do they want to initiate and disrupt an enemy with it, or do they want to help an ally get to safety? However, I don't think it gives enough of a movement speed boost for it to be of any use in the late game, 17 MS doesn't seem like very much.

When it comes to his E, I think the base shield amount and its AP ratio are abysmally low. Maybe you could increase the base shield on it and change the ability so that Cain can only target an ally with it, but then he receives a percentage of that shield for himself as well.

His passive strikes me as odd because it rewards building tanky with more tankiness. This seem incongruent with the stat conversion passives that are already in the game because those passives don't really have this kind of equivalent exchange. They either ask that the player build offensive stats to get defensive stats (Vlad, Galio, Xerath), defensive stats to get offensive stats (Rammus, Malphite and, to a lesser extent, Vlad again), or utility stats for defensive stats (Singed) or offensive stats (Hecarim). There's no stat conversion passive that rewards building offense with more offense or building defense with more defense, so this particular passive on Cain strikes me as a bit overpowered as well.

On the other hand, the passive bonus doesn't strike as particularly good due to how little health and magic resist you would actually get from the passive with an armor heavy build. With 300 armor, this passive is only granting 150 health and 45 MR, and that's only if you actually build straight armor instead of other necessary stats. This indicates to me that you are aware this passive could be really overpowered if the numbers on it were actually, you know, good. Also, why does he get free MR from his passive and his W? You could easily consolidate the MR from his W onto his passive, though I would suggest coming up with a different passive for him outright. If you have your heart set on a stat conversion passive, why not have it convert Armor into AP since he's already an AP champ? Still, I strongly advise against stat conversion passives at all; they're not exactly stellar champ design and they're pretty difficult to balance in the actual game.

Finally, I think his ultimate is really overpowered and makes very little thematic sense to me on an armored knight with a big heavy shield. He just inexplicably has a ranged nuke in his kit that blinds and silences in an AoE, despite the fact he already has an AoE silence on his W. There's absolutely no need for him to have two silencing radius abilities; maybe the silence on his W could be changed to a slow.

All in all, you have an interesting concept but the kit just seems wonky to me. It only fits the theme of a heavily armored shield knight on one ability; you have the same type of CC on two separate abilities; the stat conversion passive seems really underpowered but only because it would be overpowered if the numbers were higher. I like the champ, but his kit just seems all over the place. It could definitely be streamlined in the areas I've outlined, and the passive should have more synergy with the champ or his kit than simply giving him free stats.

Nice job and I look forward to seeing other concepts you come up with.


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Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

04-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumplefugly View Post
Cain's abilities seems really weird for a shield-based character. Only his Q seems to emphasize the fact that this guy uses his shield, the rest of his abilities sound like they could be on a completely different character. Do you want this guy to be an armored fighter that fights with his shield? or do you want him to be some kind of dark energy manipulating knight? His kit seems to heavily fall into the latter category, which makes me wonder what the shield is for besides the charge on his Q. I'd like to see his abilities make more use of his shield considering his title is "The Forgotten Shield."

I like his Q, though I think it would be cool if it could affect an ally champion (like Jax's Leap Strike) so Cain could use it to reposition allies to put them out of harm's way. This would fit with the tank/support role while also give the player a choice of how they want to use his Q: Do they want to initiate and disrupt an enemy with it, or do they want to help an ally get to safety? However, I don't think it gives enough of a movement speed boost for it to be of any use in the late game, 17 MS doesn't seem like very much.

When it comes to his E, I think the base shield amount and its AP ratio are abysmally low. Maybe you could increase the base shield on it and change the ability so that Cain can only target an ally with it, but then he receives a percentage of that shield for himself as well.

His passive strikes me as odd because it rewards building tanky with more tankiness. This seem incongruent with the stat conversion passives that are already in the game because those passives don't really have this kind of equivalent exchange. They either ask that the player build offensive stats to get defensive stats (Vlad, Galio, Xerath), defensive stats to get offensive stats (Rammus, Malphite and, to a lesser extent, Vlad again), or utility stats for defensive stats (Singed) or offensive stats (Hecarim). There's no stat conversion passive that rewards building offense with more offense or building defense with more defense, so this particular passive on Cain strikes me as a bit overpowered as well.

On the other hand, the passive bonus doesn't strike as particularly good due to how little health and magic resist you would actually get from the passive with an armor heavy build. With 300 armor, this passive is only granting 150 health and 45 MR, and that's only if you actually build straight armor instead of other necessary stats. This indicates to me that you are aware this passive could be really overpowered if the numbers on it were actually, you know, good. Also, why does he get free MR from his passive and his W? You could easily consolidate the MR from his W onto his passive, though I would suggest coming up with a different passive for him outright. If you have your heart set on a stat conversion passive, why not have it convert Armor into AP since he's already an AP champ? Still, I strongly advise against stat conversion passives at all; they're not exactly stellar champ design and they're pretty difficult to balance in the actual game.

Finally, I think his ultimate is really overpowered and makes very little thematic sense to me on an armored knight with a big heavy shield. He just inexplicably has a ranged nuke in his kit that blinds and silences in an AoE, despite the fact he already has an AoE silence on his W. There's absolutely no need for him to have two silencing radius abilities; maybe the silence on his W could be changed to a slow.

All in all, you have an interesting concept but the kit just seems wonky to me. It only fits the theme of a heavily armored shield knight on one ability; you have the same type of CC on two separate abilities; the stat conversion passive seems really underpowered but only because it would be overpowered if the numbers were higher. I like the champ, but his kit just seems all over the place. It could definitely be streamlined in the areas I've outlined, and the passive should have more synergy with the champ or his kit than simply giving him free stats.

Nice job and I look forward to seeing other concepts you come up with.
The thing about Cain is that He relies on both his shield AND his magic, His W was originally a taunt which shows Cain holding up his shield in defense, but due to a lot of confusions from just about everybody, it had to change. It's still on the fritz, so if you have your own idea of an ability for Cain, I'd love to hear it. HIs kit was meant to work like Cain does physical attacks, but his attacks are backed up by magic, which is why he's AP.

Q: The main concern of your idea of using this Q on an ally is all of the jack asses that will use it to piss off their own team. PIcture this: Your team is being pushed back by the enemy and you're right behind someone playing Cain. You're almost at your turret.... until Cain uses Q on you to give himself a push forward, and knocking you into a huge cluster ****. You see where I'm going with this?
As for the movement speed, Q was designed to linger so you can deal damage to minions while chasing your target, but what kind of numbers were you recommending for the bonus MS?

E: I compared the shield to Morgana's (which only affects the ally), and slightly lowered the shield output so that players would want to use it to assist fellow allies, rather than assisting one's self. If you still think that the shield amount should increase, by how much exactly should it go up?

Innate: The purpose of the innate was to keep players from building AD Cain (which is not how he's supposed to be played). People would constantly complain about how OP the bonus HP and MR was it was constantly nerfed to the numbers that you see now. I wanted to give Cain more bonus MR so that he would be able to stand up to both AD and AP champs. I know that stat conversions aren't the best innates as of now, but I can't think of any good innates that would fit with Cain's strategy. If you have your own idea, then please enlighten me. Otherwise, the innate will stay as is.

R: As explained before, Cain uses more than just his shield, so don't think of him as just an ordinary knight.

I know it may seem confusing on why a knight would work with magic. But just remember that Cain has more than just a shield. The point of the shield was to show that he's able to take a lot of hits as a tank, while he relies on his magic to do damage. I'm not sure how much more I can convince you on why he's made like this and nobody else ever really saw it as that much of a problem. Again, if you're able to suggest a new W or a new innate, I'll be happy to look into it.


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Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

04-16-2012

Alright, 8000 views! Just 2000 more and this thread will actually worth something!


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Goretusk

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Member

04-16-2012

I like the thought put into it, glad you have your idea of what you want it to look like.
And kyle is too fidgety >.>


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Lord Kyleshorse

Senior Member

04-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goretusk View Post
I like the thought put into it, glad you have your idea of what you want it to look like.
And kyle is too fidgety >.>
....... What the hell do you mean by "fidgety"?!


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Rumplefugly

Member

04-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kyleshorse View Post
The thing about Cain is that He relies on both his shield AND his magic, His W was originally a taunt which shows Cain holding up his shield in defense, but due to a lot of confusions from just about everybody, it had to change. It's still on the fritz, so if you have your own idea of an ability for Cain, I'd love to hear it. HIs kit was meant to work like Cain does physical attacks, but his attacks are backed up by magic, which is why he's AP.

Q: The main concern of your idea of using this Q on an ally is all of the jack asses that will use it to piss off their own team. PIcture this: Your team is being pushed back by the enemy and you're right behind someone playing Cain. You're almost at your turret.... until Cain uses Q on you to give himself a push forward, and knocking you into a huge cluster ****. You see where I'm going with this?
As for the movement speed, Q was designed to linger so you can deal damage to minions while chasing your target, but what kind of numbers were you recommending for the bonus MS?

E: I compared the shield to Morgana's (which only affects the ally), and slightly lowered the shield output so that players would want to use it to assist fellow allies, rather than assisting one's self. If you still think that the shield amount should increase, by how much exactly should it go up?

Innate: The purpose of the innate was to keep players from building AD Cain (which is not how he's supposed to be played). People would constantly complain about how OP the bonus HP and MR was it was constantly nerfed to the numbers that you see now. I wanted to give Cain more bonus MR so that he would be able to stand up to both AD and AP champs. I know that stat conversions aren't the best innates as of now, but I can't think of any good innates that would fit with Cain's strategy. If you have your own idea, then please enlighten me. Otherwise, the innate will stay as is.

R: As explained before, Cain uses more than just his shield, so don't think of him as just an ordinary knight.

I know it may seem confusing on why a knight would work with magic. But just remember that Cain has more than just a shield. The point of the shield was to show that he's able to take a lot of hits as a tank, while he relies on his magic to do damage. I'm not sure how much more I can convince you on why he's made like this and nobody else ever really saw it as that much of a problem. Again, if you're able to suggest a new W or a new innate, I'll be happy to look into it.
Maybe I could have been more clear. What I meant to say is that Cain's kit doesn't seem to emphasize his prowess with a shield AND his dark magic. His only ability that incorporates both the shield and the dark magic is his Q. The rest of his kit is just him manipulating dark energy to produce an effect. This isn't necessarily a problem but it does leave me wondering why this big warrior with a giant shield is only using his shield with one ability.

Your concerns about my suggestion for his Q are duly noted. I completely understand where you're coming from in regards to trolls; I was merely offering an idea off the top of my head.

My issues about the movement speed bonus are due to the fact that 17 movement speed is a negligible amount, especially during the late game. He's really susceptible to kiting from any ranged champ with red buff. There's a reason that flat movement speeds bonuses in certain champions' kits (Sivir, MF, Vayne, etc.) provide anywhere from 40-70 movement speed while the rest have percentage-based increases. In my opinion, if his Q is going to provide a flat movement speed increase, it should scale from 30/40/50/60/70 movement speed. If it's going to do a percentage-based movement speed increase, it should scale from 15/20/25/30/35%.

Be warned, if you do this, then Cain's Q needs to have a set duration for how long he'll run at the target, otherwise it'll be ridiculously OP.

As for his W, I'm just confused that Cain gets passive magic resistance from both his passive and this ability. I'm also confused that it does an AoE silence just like his ultimate. I'd be more than willing to suggest an idea for a move but I need to know just what your design philosophy for this champion is. What playstyle are you shooting for? Can you point to any existing characters in other mediums that may have served as inspiration for this champ?

I think his E just needs a ratio boost to be perfectly honest because I don't see any reason why I would build AP items on this champ. Making his shield scale really well off of AP is a good way to encourage playing him in more of a support role. I would say bump the ratio up to 0.6 - 0.8. Also, I just want to make sure I understand the ability correctly: Cain can only cast the shield on an ally but he'll also put a shield for himself too? Or can Cain choose to just shield himself and forgo shielding an ally? What is the trade-off for using the shield on Cain instead of an ally and vice-versa? Currently it just seems to shield two champions with no real drawbacks.

As for his ult, I just think it's odd to emphasize Cain's dark magic over his shield proficiency instead of creating an ultimate ability for him that incorporates both of those aspects of his character while also fulfilling his role as a tank/support champion. Unfortunately, nothing really comes to my mind for an alternate ultimate ability.

His innate, on the other hand, I can totally help you out with. Here's an idea:

Phalanx Fighting - Cain gains 4/6/8 armor and magic resistance for each allied champion within 500 range and grants them half of this bonus as a passive aura.

Anyway, I think you have a solid idea. I hope my feedback has been helpful.