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The cure for laning against ashe early?

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Highborne

Recruiter

10-14-2009

In short, don't solo lane vs ashe as Rammus. Actually, never solo lane as Rammus ever, it isn't a good idea since he is so terrible at last hitting and creep killing why would your team even let you solo?


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kitfox

Member

10-14-2009

Quote:
Highborne:
In short, don't solo lane vs ashe as Rammus. Actually, never solo lane as Rammus ever, it isn't a good idea since he is so terrible at last hitting and creep killing why would your team even let you solo?


^what he said is absolutely on the money.

Rough estimate of where you are most likely to see ashe in 1:1 lane is mid vs anotehr carry. i'd give it 60-70% of pug games this to be the case.

In organised teams though this might be not so the case. The team may chose to strongside a left or right side of the map and let ashe carry herself on one of the side lanes.

If you pick to stick to the L/R lanes and dont go mid you are in the high probability of not finding ashe in 1:1.

if you do eithe ask for a swap imediately or try setup a 2v1 early harrass or even attempt gank on her lane. if your team is strong enough on the other lanes you can even try 1st level 3v1 harrass and then disperse or try hardpress for the tower. it will most likely blow the oponents teleports and give them a bit of a worry for a competent team (makes you look hungry and agressive early on and sets a mental pace for them to try and overcome) or trully anhiolate them early on and set up 2 or even 3 tower push as you still would ahve your teleports off CD and tehy will ahve to walk from the shop when the respawn.

most pugs though are not as organised so try to setup matchups when the loading screen shows the oponents. this is where i also write down their summoner spells and allocate numbers of "threat" my way so 1 is priority and 10 would be easy gank.
everyone neutral starts at 5 and depends on playstyle, reaction, item choices i rewrite their threat numbers. i usualy do this when im dead (plenty of time to write stuff down) or when traveling

so once the game starts I would have a "good matchups" list and would have an idea how the lane might go in whose favour.
if you switch and relocate mathcups watch the oponents. if they switch too then you are against a competent team who will persue any lane advantage they can get.

most games though dont re-switch to match you so you may end up winning the game you may have trouble with just by getting a better matchup. even blowing a tele CD for getting a better mathchup is worth it longterm.

However if you are absulutely in love with the lane you are in for whatever reasons then the only thing left is get a ranged support to harrass ashe and hope for the best.


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Octovert

Senior Member

10-14-2009

I can't help but think that most of you are missing the point. I'm not talking about being rammus solo in the lane - i'm saying that I have my choice of partner. Who is the ideal partner?


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kitfox

Member

10-15-2009

Quote:
RustyBarnacle:
I can't help but think that most of you are missing the point. I'm not talking about being rammus solo in the lane - i'm saying that I have my choice of partner. Who is the ideal partner?


Its quite possible I misread your original post but I do remember the 2nd paragraph saying something about you usualy ending up vs ashe in the middle lane and not being able to do anything to him 1:1.

short of doing what has already been mentioned getting a partner is a good option but 2:1 vs ashe means you eaither need a very good harrassment campaign or he will outlevel you both very quickly if you just shuffle arround the creeps and exchange occasional potshots.

Any ranged champ will do. Most ranged supports and mages can fill the spot. I wont list them all cause it depends on what you want to do to ashe but if your partner has a snare or stun can make your life easier if you chose to outmuscle ashe out of XP range and stop/minimise his leveling.

Another harraser may be usefull but without you having a capacity to avoid his kiting the lane becomes ashe v your partner and you as a spectator dancing arround his voley cone or trying to sneak arround for a chance of a powerball stun out of the bushes or while ahse is retreating but thats more annoying to you as you are not getting XP from the creeps and are just a spectator.

Another option is to try heal through his harrasment and just plow the minions faster than he can plow yours, yourself and your healer with voley and autoattack. (supported brute force sort of speak). Mind you you are still leveling at 1/2 his speed and soon you will feel the level disparity hurt you.

In search for your partner you must know what is your intention with ashe and pick acordingly keeping in mind the shared XP.

If I were you I would pick a partner that can outright force ashe out of the lane. Ryze stun + your own stun can be coupled for an early kill and agressive chasing out of the lane.
You can try and go 2 melee and try setup some sneaky plays but unless you can kill her quickly or seriously force her out she can outkite you both and still get her XP, thats why i advocate ranged support.

As for your 'ideal' partner. There is no such thing as ideal as you dont know who you end up playing against until it starts loading.
So just look out for the ranged supports and pick one to support you.
if you want a ashe matchup you will most likely find her in the middle


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seresibyl

Senior Member

10-15-2009

Quote:
RustyBarnacle:
I can't help but think that most of you are missing the point. I'm not talking about being rammus solo in the lane - i'm saying that I have my choice of partner. Who is the ideal partner?


Go with Katarina and have her play aggressive ^^; W E run with you following in to make the ashe not retaliate :V

I think the worst thing people do versus Ashe is continually let her dominate by being afraid. =P


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Cumulous

Senior Member

10-15-2009

Because it seems like you were looking for specifics to either kill Ashe, force her to Flash and Recall, or to just domniate the lane. Pretty much disables with Powerball + Taunt should be enough. The last sentence is really all you need to know if you don't wanna read the following wall of text.

Janna: Howling Gale should give you time to land powerball if you start howl as soon as you start to charge with powerball and you let if shoot when Ashe starts to run. Also heal can keep you in the lane longer (usually enough that you can get a mana regen item to start, which personally I usually start with dorian shield). Try to abuse the range on Howling Gale so Ashe doesn't dodge it, just remember that you have to charge it longer for the full damage and distance.

Zilean: Time Warp Rammus -> Time Bomb Rammus -> Follow Rammus as he Super Powerball's Ashe (If you can't land Powerball while Time Warped you shouldn't play Rammus, but hit creeps. Powerball + Time Bomb will pretty much clear a creepwave) -> Rewind -> Time Bomb Ashe -> Move Between Ashe and tower -> Time Warp Ashe (20 sec cd, 10 secs after Rewind, and the buff probably lasts about 4 secs the first time you try, so 4 secs + powerball + taunt it should be pretty close to coming off cd you might have to chase to get the cast off. Ashe will probably slow Rammus and run. Time Warp should be a max of 1-2 secs from cd. Hopefully this is a redundant step and Ashe is low enough for your Time Bomb to kill) if its still on cd use Exaust (if Ashe can Flash its a judgement call, Exaust's -25 mage reduction might be enough to kill and its easy to misjudge Time Bomb's damage, thankfully this works more in your favor because Ashe could misuse Flash, while if you Exaust Ashe will have to Flash. Just remember you can always let Ashe Recall and get a free lane for a min).

Blitzcrank: Requires someone that can reliably land Rocket Grab. I don't suggest it because if you can't land Grab then you lose the lane. Anyway Grab -> Fist. Rammus should powerball Ashe back into Blitzcrank and then taunt. Fist cd is low so theres a chance of another fist. Amumu is also possible (Bandage Toss + Tantrum) alot harder to land the Powerball after Bandage Toss then it is after Rocket Grab.

Taric: I'm not entirely sure if this will work, but I'm typing it because of the mid/late game synergy that Taric/Rammus have so its a good pick to pair Taric and Rammus on the same team (without knowing your opponents picks of course). You can either try to push down the tower with Imbune + Shatter on Taric and Powerball spam on Rammus or get 1 lvl of Dazzle and try to force Ashe to flash. Dazzle -> Powerball -> Taunt -> Shatter. You will probably need Imbune to stay in the lane because it is a dual melee lane vs. a ranged hero. Again I'm not sure if you could pull off a Taric/Rammus lane early game vs Ashe solo.


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OctopusDropkick

Senior Member

10-15-2009

The only thing that can push back an Ashe 1 on 1 is a well played Sivir. That's about it. Sivir has the pushing power to counter Ashe while she can actually extend a longer range by using her ricochet to bounce far along a creep wave. Meanwhile she has her spell-block ability. If you're quick to slap it up as Ashe fires off a volley, you're safe.

That's about it really. Ashe is a beast from start to finish.


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churros

Adjudicator

10-15-2009

umm i think some of you are being a little too unrealistic about this laning against ashe thing.
I could practically knock down every one of those scenarios you gave me, not to be rude, but its mostly how one plays the characters not the characters themselves. I said mostly.

If you are versing an ashe stay behind your creeps if she likes to volley and get creep kills at your tower. If the ashe likes to harrass you with frost shot, dont get near her. Easy enough huh? Once she has ulti stay particularly close to your own tower or enough so that a flash would be sufficient enough to get you out of there.

Umm i wouldn't worry too much about getting creep kills against her because she will be harrassing you way too much for that, that is if the ashe is decent. Just get the exp and ask for atleast 2 ganks before she hits level 6.

Obviously, what I am saying is for versing decent ashes and not reckless ones. Ashes are extremely squishy early game so if they are reckless and just continuously get hit by your creep or tower, you could be a little aggressive.

Just realize that continuously pushing the ashe back doesn't work if the ashe is decent. Even if you slow her, she can just slow you with frost shot. Lets say your tryndamere you use mocking shout. She could just put on frost shot and start attacking you. She may be slowed but she can stand her ground well against most champions. That is where the mistake of the person comes in. They get hit by the frost shot which slows them. Once the person sees that first crit of ashes doing 100 they back off. But it's too late for that because ashe has you slowed. The point is don't play aggressive against the ashe unless he or she truly is terrible with her. Play defensive.


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Pen15Mightier

Senior Member

10-15-2009

As both a Rammus and an Ashe player. Get Armor and Regen, and just weather the storm. The first few levels you pretty much just hang back and get EXP from creep skirmish and tower wave clears. Last hitting should be the furthest thing from your mind for the most part. Build up your Powerball and Taunt/Curl (I usually just alternate a bit.

When you both his Level 6. See if she fires her ult (or BP's, as that usually means she'll fire right back down middle lane while teleporting), dodge it, or if she fires to a side lane (support), you Powerball in and pop your Taunt/Ult/Curl. Your Armor/Regen should get you through that fight with your Ult doing most of the damage. She's usually dead or forced to retreat, in which case you then farm with your last-hits. Watch the clock and know when she could potentially fire off another arrow. It's really more of a timing thing. Volley/Frost Arrow don't bother you that much if you have the Armor/Regen to weather the storm of it while closing the distance with a charged up Powerball.

Doran's Shield -> Heart of Gold -> Ninja Tabi -> Heart of Gold will get you into the later stages of the game where you are just able to decimate her with Taunt and help in the team gank phase of the game.


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Raimus

Senior Member

10-15-2009

you are all forgetting about fiddlesticks he is perfect against ashe.. Ashe can barely touch me when im with fiddle. I killed ashe 3 times in a row just use crow storm on her then fear then dark wind then follow her... well actually she may already be dead by then.


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