Lets talk about Garen.

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BillionStorm

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Senior Member

07-20-2010

So, Garen. Tank right? In my opinion he is viable as a DPS as well. I've been testing Garen DPS builds and I've been criticized for playing him as a not-sunfire-stacking-tank. So lets do some math. For this number crunching theory crafting session I'll be comparing Garen to a relatively similar physical DPS that is considered relatively viable right now: Pantheon. I'm not saying Garen is better than Pantheon, just using him as a basis for comparison, I'll let you decide what you think after seeing the numbers and comparison.

First lets compare base stats. In base stats Garen wins pretty much across the board.

Base HP
Pantheon: 433+87/level
Garen: 455+96/level

Base Damage
Pantheon: 50.7+2.9/level
Garen: 57.66+3/level

Base Move Speed
Pantheon: 330
Garen: 320

Base Armor
Pantheon: 17.1+3.9/level
Garen: 19+2.7/level

Base Magic Resist
Pantheon: 30+1.25/level
Garen 30+1.25/level

Health Regen
Pantheon: 1.35+.13/level
Garen: 1.8+.17/level

I left out mana and mana regen for obvious reasons, Garen has neither and thus wins on that front. Another advantage of Garen has as a character in general (regardless of how you build him).

So obviously it's not base stats that make people see Garen as an unreliable DPS, his base damage and damage gain are higher than than Pantheon and even lots of other physical DPS such as Ashe, Tristana, Ezreal, Sivir, and more. So lets take a look at the skills (to keep the post from being an unscalable wall of text I've posted links to their pages which have their skills on them).

Pantheon
Garen

So, what does that all mean? First lets take a look at their big ticket damage skills. Pantheon has Heartseeker Strike and Garen has Judgement, two very similar moves. Lets compare the damage at level 5 with varying amounts of attack damage.

100 AD
Heartseeker: [12 (base damage) + 34 (AD scaling)] * 5 (amount of hits) * 2 (does double damage to champions) = 460 damage
Judgement: [95 (base damage) + 35 (AD scaling)] * 6 (amount of hits) = 780 damage

200 AD
Heartseeker: (12 + 68) * 5 * 2 = 800
Judgement: (95 + 70) * 6 = 990

300 AD
Heartseeker: (12 + 102) * 5 * 2 = 1140
Judgement: (95 + 105) * 6 = 1200

400 AD
Heartseeker: (12 + 136) * 5 * 2 = 1480
Judgement: (95 + 140) * 6 = 1410

So obviously Judgement wins earlier due to having one more hit and a way higher base damage. However it isn't until after 346 AD that Heartseeker starts doing more damage than Judgement. So lets look at the other aspects of the skills. Heartseeker is a frontal cone AoE that keeps Pantheon from moving for the duration. It has a nice passive tacked on that gives Pantheon a 100% chance to crit against champions below 15% health. Judgement is an AoE centered around Garen that allows him to move and also makes him immune to slows and roots for the duration. It also does half damage to minions, so it's not nearly as good for farming creeps. HOWEVER, one thing that makes it possible for Garen to do more damage even after the 346 AD mark, is crit chance. Judgement scales with crit chance, and getting Infinity Edge WILL increase the damage of the Judgement crits. I won't even go into those calculations because I don't know exactly how they work, but it definitely puts Judgement's damage above Heartseeker even later in the game (assuming you have any crit chance on Garen) Both skills take around the same time to use (at least I think, correct me if I'm wrong).

Next lets compare their single target nukes, the Spear Shot and Decisive Strike at different amounts of AD (of course at level 5)

100 AD
Spear Shot: 70 (base) + 160 (scaling) = 230
Decisive Strike: 120 (base) + 100 (scaling) = 220

So at level 5 of the skills Spear shot already beats out Decisive Strike in damage. Spear shot is a simple single target some range physical nuke. However Decisive strike comes with bonuses. A 2.5 second silence at all levels, a movement speed boost that scales with level, and it can hit towers.

I won't bother doing a number comparison on the last four abilities, they're too dissimilar to. Pantheon's W is a standard stun, jumps him towards the target and sets up nicely for a Heartseeker Strike it also puts up his passive shield. Garen's W passively adds an amount of armor for each creep you kill, capping at a certain amount that increases in level. Also on activation it decreases incoming damage by 35% for an amount of time that scales with level. Pantheon's ultimate, Grand Skyfall, is a high damage global AoE that slows and teleports him to target location. The damage at the center is huge but decreases if you aren't in the center. Very nice for the fact that it's a global teleport, I'm sure you all know of its uses. Garens ultimate, Demancian Justice, is a high damage nuke that does more damage the less HP the target has. It has a short range (although longer than Garen's range) and is mainly to pick off a low health champion that tries to run from the fight. Pantheon's passive, Aegis Protection, gives him a shield every 4 attacks/spell casts that blocks the next attack (non-spell) that does over 40 damage. Very nice for things like tower diving. Garen's passive, Perseverance, heals .5% of his HP every second if he has not received damage for the past 7 seconds. This is very nice for staying in lanes forever, and for some extra healing while running from one place to another, or while waiting for an enemy team to come push.

So that's pretty much my comparison. I think Garen can be a perfectly viable DPS if you build him right. What does the rest of the community think?

TL;DR: None, read it foo.


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Catnium

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Senior Member

07-20-2010

garen was a dps when he was new
he was intended as a melee char that scaled off critt for the most part, all his abilitys could critt

than thay nerfed his ability to critt with Q because ppl moaned on forums , much like thay do now with Xi
wich in turn totaly ruined his dps hero status , with out Q to be able to critt he only has very moderate damage late game , the scaling on his E means its strong early game , but kinda losses its effects the longer the game lasts

Origionaly he worked off his E early mid game and late game his Q would be his main damage skill critting for anything between 900 to 1400 depending on how well fed/farmed he was

his kill combo was , auto attack Q. E .Q .R with the right build and something like 30-40% cd reduction
sadly he got nerfed to bits with the removal of the critt chance on his Q sinds it was the only good burst skill he had late game where all the other dps carry's can auto attack critt for the same amount 2 to 2.5 times a second >.<


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LucentCross

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Member

07-20-2010

Garen can DPS if the team needs it. However, since most of his damage in a fight will come from Judgement, his build must emphasize AD over anything else (except Youmuu's for the armor pen and CDR). Since all of his attacks are physical, armor pen is an absolute must on Garen, marks and quints.

Garen is not a tank; he has no "focus me! focus me!" ability. He can be played as an off-tank like Nasus or Sion by building tank items (read: frozen mallet).

In ranked matches I usually play him as a hybrid, picking up early HP, often a frozen mallet, then adding Youmuu's and damage later on.

Also, AWESOME MATH!