Let us talk Marks (Reds)

12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Muggsly

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-22-2012

I have been messing with different builds on my bruisers specifically Wukong and Irelia for dominion. I have a masteries set I love for both of them but I find myself a bit iffy on which reds to use. In SR it is normally ARP reds every time without fail due to length of games and the importance to be viable late game. But I am starting to see in dominion where an early game lead is pretty much a win. While comebacks are possible and not completely uncommon if we can get those kills early allows an easier snowball. Also I rarely see people building armor or getting above 100 armor where Arp becomes viable till very late and at that point the game is almost over.

So I have been running AD reds to give me that bit of advantage in the damage department early on and it seems to be helping but is there a consensus on which is better for dominion and why?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AbsolutePK

Senior Member

01-22-2012

Don't forget there's a free aura on Crystal Scar that gives:
12% Armor Penetration
5% Magic Penetration
Increased Mana Regeneration (not sure if it's a fixed amount or if it's a % of current regen or what, would have to test unless someone else already has)
20% Reduced Healing Effects.

Also the passive exp but that's quite obvious.

Edit: just did a custom and Nidalee has 9 MP/5 without buying items, bought a Elaise's Miracle (20 mp/5) and it was still just 29.

I'd probably go with flat AD marks with maybe 3-4 ArP marks thrown in, or full AD/level marks giving you ~3.5 AD at level 3 fight for top or ~4.6 at level 4. I think you hit 4 before the skirmish for Windmill actually takes place and building to 21 AD at 18.

However I'll forever be using ArP marks since I'm too focused on buying champions to spend more IP on runes.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RealWolf M

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-22-2012

um, Arpen is most viable at low armour values, not high.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bonabon

Senior Member

01-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealWolf M View Post
um, Arpen is most viable at low armour values, not high.
This.

Flat Arpen is better at low armor values.
Percentage Arpen is better at high armor values.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sauron

Senior Member

01-22-2012

ArPen marks are great at all levels if you are playing a champion with a % armor reduction, like Wukong's Q.

That's because % reduction applies first, as opposed to % penetration which applies last.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stimuz

Senior Member

01-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
ArPen marks are great at all levels if you are playing a champion with a % armor reduction, like Wukong's Q.

That's because % reduction applies first, as opposed to % penetration which applies last.
Nidalee traps op! honestly though, a very high number of AD caster slash autoattackers can get a huge lead off of getting a double-quad kill top due to their high base damage coupled with the fact that you can get true damage on most players for that fight just with masteries and arp reds+quints.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stimuz

Senior Member

01-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealWolf M View Post
um, Arpen is most viable at low armour values, not high.
Obviously this is true but if you have a shred of any sort you can get obscenely high ARP numbers. Like kog Q + 31 runes/masteries + 45 cleaver, that sort of thing. It actually surpasses LW in a lot of case.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zeynothix

Member

01-22-2012

I was about to write up this huge detailed post doing the math on which is better in different circumstances, but I realized that it is very simple.

Armor doesn't just increase damage reduction, it also increases Effective Health. This means that someone that has 1000 health and 100 armor(50% damage reduction), they effectively have 2000 health for the purposes of how much damage it takes to kill them. In effect, 100 armor causes the attacker to have to deal 100% more damage to kill the target. And when it is thought of this way, armor does not have diminishing returns. 200 armor requires 200% more damage to kill the target, and 500 more armor requires 500% more damage to kill the target. Math is shown here: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

In that way, we can think of armor penetration as the reverse. 15 armor penetration(full arpen marks) is 15% more "effective damage" as I like to call it. It doesn't matter if the target has 20 armor or 400 armor, 15 penetration is still 15% more effective damage. Just the person with 400 armor has much higher effective health so it doesn't seem like as much.

Compare that to 8.5 AD (full AD marks) for your chosen champion. Early on, that AD might give you stronger damage, but once you build a few items it is no longer giving you 15% more damage. This even works for abilities that scale off AD, at least those that still do physical damage and are affected by armor and armor penetration.

This also explains why I've started to do so well with building Brutalizer early. I knew arpen was powerful, but not how powerful.

Thoughts? Criticisms?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AbsolutePK

Senior Member

01-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeynothix View Post
I was about to write up this huge detailed post doing the math on which is better in different circumstances, but I realized that it is very simple.

Armor doesn't just increase damage reduction, it also increases Effective Health. This means that someone that has 1000 health and 100 armor(50% damage reduction), they effectively have 2000 health for the purposes of how much damage it takes to kill them. In effect, 100 armor causes the attacker to have to deal 100% more damage to kill the target. And when it is thought of this way, armor does not have diminishing returns. 200 armor requires 200% more damage to kill the target, and 500 more armor requires 500% more damage to kill the target. Math is shown here: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

In that way, we can think of armor penetration as the reverse. 15 armor penetration(full arpen marks) is 15% more "effective damage" as I like to call it. It doesn't matter if the target has 20 armor or 400 armor, 15 penetration is still 15% more effective damage. Just the person with 400 armor has much higher effective health so it doesn't seem like as much.

Compare that to 8.5 AD (full AD marks) for your chosen champion. Early on, that AD might give you stronger damage, but once you build a few items it is no longer giving you 15% more damage. This even works for abilities that scale off AD, at least those that still do physical damage and are affected by armor and armor penetration.

This also explains why I've started to do so well with building Brutalizer early. I knew arpen was powerful, but not how powerful.

Thoughts? Criticisms?
ArPen is indeed really effective. I used to play Pantheon a whole lot in blind pick and I'd often start off with Boots and 2x Long Sword then get Brutalizer ASAP before going for boots and defensive stuff like hex drinker or phage/atma's.

Transitioned into a really strong build depending on the enemy team, generally didn't have enough time to fully finish and would just end with FM/atma's/Brutalizer.

However not sure my rabble has much to do with what you're asking.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stimuz

Senior Member

01-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeynothix View Post
I was about to write up this huge detailed post doing the math on which is better in different circumstances, but I realized that it is very simple.

Armor doesn't just increase damage reduction, it also increases Effective Health. This means that someone that has 1000 health and 100 armor(50% damage reduction), they effectively have 2000 health for the purposes of how much damage it takes to kill them. In effect, 100 armor causes the attacker to have to deal 100% more damage to kill the target. And when it is thought of this way, armor does not have diminishing returns. 200 armor requires 200% more damage to kill the target, and 500 more armor requires 500% more damage to kill the target. Math is shown here: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

In that way, we can think of armor penetration as the reverse. 15 armor penetration(full arpen marks) is 15% more "effective damage" as I like to call it. It doesn't matter if the target has 20 armor or 400 armor, 15 penetration is still 15% more effective damage. Just the person with 400 armor has much higher effective health so it doesn't seem like as much.

Compare that to 8.5 AD (full AD marks) for your chosen champion. Early on, that AD might give you stronger damage, but once you build a few items it is no longer giving you 15% more damage. This even works for abilities that scale off AD, at least those that still do physical damage and are affected by armor and armor penetration. Oh, ASPD is another popular alternative.

This also explains why I've started to do so well with building Brutalizer early. I knew arpen was powerful, but not how powerful.

Thoughts? Criticisms?
You'd probably wanna compare it to 21.9 AD at 18 since I'm sure most dom exclusive players run X/level over their flat counterparts since you surpass the flats so quickly in dom, usually around 10.


12