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Tiger Jungle Udyr?

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Littlebighobo

Recruiter

01-21-2012

Quote:
RunsOnDiesel:
Yes? Its warm over here too!


I run crit chance runes reds and yellows, 17%, (21% starting) and mr blues, and offensive masteries but with the 6 armor and 6 mr defensive masteries. I start at blue with tiger and dont need smite with a decent leash (i grab exhaust and ghost). I level tiger to 2 and turtle to 2 before getting bear stance.

You can easily get smite if u want but I find Udyr with this build has an easy clearance of the jungle. And exhaust/ghost allows pretty easy soloing of early game carrys, especially with bear stance.


Have fun getting dragon and baron stolen when you dont pick up smite


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Emperor Seth

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Zero000x000:
Hopefully I don't sound demeaning, but there are many misconceptions here.

Phoenix jungles faster at all points of the game, Wriggle's procs or not. In fact, Wriggle's barely jungles faster than double Doran's Tiger. It's easy to see that Phoenix's AoE Aura out-damage Tiger procs (even on single targets) and most of the Wriggle procs, and people forget that Phoenix gives a large amount of AD to jungle faster as well, not to mention the third hit splash.

Tiger ganks aren't better. This is completely situational. Phoenix tends to be stronger overall, as there are more things for Phoenix to gank, and because Phoenix optimally runs Movespeed quints and ganks 20 seconds earlier than Tiger. Tiger is better in certain cases though, mostly those where you don't have follow-up CC or damage and you just want to make people lose HP. Things like Janna, Ezreal, and Lee Sin are ganked easier by Tiger. In general, Tiger is better if and only you can't get the third hit of Phoenix off.

Phoenix does Dragon/Tiger just as well, though admittedly Tiger tanks it a bit better with single type damage and lifesteal to go with it.

Phoenix kills towers worse than Tiger because Wit's End and the splash doesn't hit towers, so conceded Tiger is better at killing towers. Though remember Phoenix is also better at pushing.

Phoenix clears faster and therefore also gets to counter-jungler earlier. He's also more difficult to 1v1, and moves faster. I wouldn't say Tiger is better at counterjungling buff camps. Phoenix can leave small minions behind too.

Why would Tiger be any better at surviving 1v1s? Phoenix does more damage in sustained fights, and is faster and builds more resistances early on.

That's not how teamfights work. Most of the time Udyr is Turtle/Bear anyways. Unless you are playing against idiots, you shouldn't be able to attack their carry unless you Flash (otherwise someone like Skarner would be able OP because they can ult the carry every fight O_o). Udyr's primary strength late-game (though I think you're talking about mid-game) isn't to do damage and burst ****, because that's what carries are for late-game. By late-game Udyr is just a soak with CC. Early/mid-game, Phoenix Udyr does more direct damage with the third hit than Tiger anyways, as well as the lack of need to autoattack as much means Phoenix can move faster and keep up with targets. So unless you can't hit the third autoattack and stand next to whoever you're attacking, Tiger isn't better in a fight. Tiger's strength has always been damage exchange potential. If you can't turn around and fight Tiger Udyr, you're forced to run. Phoenix on the other hand can get poked, but you're also better at just forcing people into combat.


Phoenix and Tigers are both choices (so is Hybrid Phoenix/Tiger). Phoenix indeed is the overall stronger option. GD does have a lot of misconceptions about things though. The whole "Only Phoenix for jungle, only Tiger for lane" is really dumb. They have different strengths, with Phoenix overall stronger, but Tiger not far behind.


1: Way to completely disconsider wriggle procs which, with tiger can nearly instantly take down a buff mob before the tiger stance attack speed even ends, no, phoenix is a lot slower after wriggle's/madred's is built.

2: No, there's no way around it, tiger ganks are a world ahead, the instand you attack a laner he will try to get away, you may manage to stun him for a sec with bear then hit once or twice, tiger will deal all it's frontload damage by then, phoenix needs more hits (and attacks slower) so by the time your tiger stance is refreshed for a second DoT, which has high base damage and scaling btw, the phoenix udyr may not have used his splash damage at all, meaning it's over 2x better at ganking.

3: Phoenix doesn't do Dragon/Baron half as well, lower base single target DPS, half the wriggle procs which are a huge factor against neutrals, and then there's the attack speed you mentioned yourself.

4: Pushing a lane isn't a factor when the enemy laner just died to a gank and you have 2~3 people there to do it, waves instantly melt, turrets don't.

5: Phoenix udyr is not difficult to 1x1 at all, and the 10secs faster clear is no concrete advantage, instantly killing the important mob and leaving their jungle is.

6: Tiger is better at 1x1 because at every stage of the game, it simply outdamages Phoenix, given the same amount of gold spent on damage items.

7: Correction, Phoenix udyr's strenght isn't to burst **** mid~late game, but Tiger is, even with minimal AD items built, you get to be more than a stunbot spreading damage to bruisers and tanks.

As for hybrid, not gonna comment as I never tried.


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Lord GiantR

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Emperor Seth:
1: Way to completely disconsider wriggle procs which, with tiger can nearly instantly take down a buff mob before the tiger stance attack speed even ends, no, phoenix is a lot slower after wriggle's/madred's is built.

2: No, there's no way around it, tiger ganks are a world ahead, the instand you attack a laner he will try to get away, you may manage to stun him for a sec with bear then hit once or twice, tiger will deal all it's frontload damage by then, phoenix needs more hits (and attacks slower) so by the time your tiger stance is refreshed for a second DoT, which has high base damage and scaling btw, the phoenix udyr may not have used his splash damage at all, meaning it's over 2x better at ganking.

3: Phoenix doesn't do Dragon/Baron half as well, lower base single target DPS, half the wriggle procs which are a huge factor against neutrals, and then there's the attack speed you mentioned yourself.

4: Pushing a lane isn't a factor when the enemy laner just died to a gank and you have 2~3 people there to do it, waves instantly melt, turrets don't.

5: Phoenix udyr is not difficult to 1x1 at all, and the 10secs faster clear is no concrete advantage, instantly killing the important mob and leaving their jungle is.

6: Tiger is better at 1x1 because at every stage of the game, it simply outdamages Phoenix, given the same amount of gold spent on damage items.

7: Correction, Phoenix udyr's strenght isn't to burst **** mid~late game, but Tiger is, even with minimal AD items built, you get to be more than a stunbot spreading damage to bruisers and tanks.

As for hybrid, not gonna comment as I never tried.


Idk but both Stonewall and that Gold badge guy seem to be saying that Nix is overall better... That Said i have mostly played Nix Udyr and he is incredibly fast, Tiger just feels slower afterwards, but i will try tiger Udyr if you are so willing to defend it and will comment on the findings(or not).


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Dead or Alive

Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
RunsOnDiesel:
Yes? Its warm over here too!


I run crit chance runes reds and yellows, 17%, (21% starting) and mr blues, and offensive masteries but with the 6 armor and 6 mr defensive masteries. I start at blue with tiger and dont need smite with a decent leash (i grab exhaust and ghost). I level tiger to 2 and turtle to 2 before getting bear stance.

You can easily get smite if u want but I find Udyr with this build has an easy clearance of the jungle. And exhaust/ghost allows pretty easy soloing of early game carrys, especially with bear stance.


After seeing your first comment i'm not surprised you don't run smite


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Letkhar

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Coming from someone who vastly preferred Tiger Udyr for a long time, the new Jungle kind of ended the Tiger vs. Pheonix debate for Jungle Udyr.


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Hoochiemomma

Senior Member

01-21-2012

I used to jungle tiger stance. it's alot slower then pheonix. less dmg done also


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H Minnow

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Emperor Seth:
1: Way to completely disconsider wriggle procs which, with tiger can nearly instantly take down a buff mob before the tiger stance attack speed even ends, no, phoenix is a lot slower after wriggle's/madred's is built.

2: No, there's no way around it, tiger ganks are a world ahead, the instand you attack a laner he will try to get away, you may manage to stun him for a sec with bear then hit once or twice, tiger will deal all it's frontload damage by then, phoenix needs more hits (and attacks slower) so by the time your tiger stance is refreshed for a second DoT, which has high base damage and scaling btw, the phoenix udyr may not have used his splash damage at all, meaning it's over 2x better at ganking.

3: Phoenix doesn't do Dragon/Baron half as well, lower base single target DPS, half the wriggle procs which are a huge factor against neutrals, and then there's the attack speed you mentioned yourself.

4: Pushing a lane isn't a factor when the enemy laner just died to a gank and you have 2~3 people there to do it, waves instantly melt, turrets don't.

5: Phoenix udyr is not difficult to 1x1 at all, and the 10secs faster clear is no concrete advantage, instantly killing the important mob and leaving their jungle is.

6: Tiger is better at 1x1 because at every stage of the game, it simply outdamages Phoenix, given the same amount of gold spent on damage items.

7: Correction, Phoenix udyr's strenght isn't to burst **** mid~late game, but Tiger is, even with minimal AD items built, you get to be more than a stunbot spreading damage to bruisers and tanks.

As for hybrid, not gonna comment as I never tried.


You seem really stuck on Tiger Udyr. Both are perfectly fine. Its a hard argument. I've tried both. Tiger's clear times are a lot slower. Saying 10s is wrong. Its about 20s which is enough time to set up for a gank. Or go steal an enemy camp. Or go get another of your camps. The difference is a lot. You seem to underestimate pheonix procs damage as well.
Pheonix procs do really high Damage, and can happen more then once per activation. Unlike tiger's which is a single burst. In a gank, Tiger deals damage up front but often tiger earns more kills as well. I find that pheonix is a better ganker because he gives away kill, and tiger tends to take them himself. I'd rather a fed teammate then be fed, as Udyr. He's good with items but other people are better.

1v1 both can do good damage. I find Pheonix's burst really effective 1v1 and pheonix also has DoT from the AoE. And I get free AD from using it. And free AP. Making my Pheonix and its procs do even more damage. And my turtle is made stronger as well.


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Haricots

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Littlebighobo:
Have fun getting dragon and baron stolen when you dont pick up smite

He just told us that he uses crit chance marks and seals and then told us that he could take blue buff if he had a good leash as if that was something any jungler had an issue with.

I would be surprised if there is a single ward bought at his Elo and even surprised if dragon and baron is contested, ever.

I don't think that the junglers that he faces are smite stealing much. The lack of smite is probably the least of his problems.


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Zero000x000

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Emperor Seth:
1: Way to completely disconsider wriggle procs which, with tiger can nearly instantly take down a buff mob before the tiger stance attack speed even ends, no, phoenix is a lot slower after wriggle's/madred's is built.

2: No, there's no way around it, tiger ganks are a world ahead, the instand you attack a laner he will try to get away, you may manage to stun him for a sec with bear then hit once or twice, tiger will deal all it's frontload damage by then, phoenix needs more hits (and attacks slower) so by the time your tiger stance is refreshed for a second DoT, which has high base damage and scaling btw, the phoenix udyr may not have used his splash damage at all, meaning it's over 2x better at ganking.

3: Phoenix doesn't do Dragon/Baron half as well, lower base single target DPS, half the wriggle procs which are a huge factor against neutrals, and then there's the attack speed you mentioned yourself.

4: Pushing a lane isn't a factor when the enemy laner just died to a gank and you have 2~3 people there to do it, waves instantly melt, turrets don't.

5: Phoenix udyr is not difficult to 1x1 at all, and the 10secs faster clear is no concrete advantage, instantly killing the important mob and leaving their jungle is.

6: Tiger is better at 1x1 because at every stage of the game, it simply outdamages Phoenix, given the same amount of gold spent on damage items.

7: Correction, Phoenix udyr's strenght isn't to burst **** mid~late game, but Tiger is, even with minimal AD items built, you get to be more than a stunbot spreading damage to bruisers and tanks.

As for hybrid, not gonna comment as I never tried.


For 1-6, it's easy to settle the issue. Just have two Udyrs go into a game and compare.


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I Cookeh I

Senior Member

01-23-2012

I prefer tiger over phoenix jungling and is especially fast if you have attack speed marks
Also tiger is really helpful in a team fight for shredding those tanks


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