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Tiger Jungle Udyr?

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IvI 100 Bidoof

Senior Member

01-21-2012

I jungle tiger udyr almost every time. tiger udyr does a lot more damage during ganks than pheonix, making them more reliable. personally I feel like thats more important than the 20-30 second slower clear time.


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Genraenera

Senior Member

01-21-2012

I only tiger jungle. Flat AS marks, AD quints, Armor seals, Mr/lvl glyphs. My masteries are a bit odd, but I run 17/4/9, and flash/smite.

Yes it is a little slower than phoenix, but its ganks are FAR better, and it scales better into teamfights. It's really a tradeoff; do you want a faster jungle to try to simply outlevel your opponents and deal AOE in team fights, or do you want viscous ganks and heavy single target focus?


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Cameren

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Tiger means more ganking, tiger stance udyr also has the second best lvl 2 gank, after lee sin.


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Emperor Seth

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Lord GiantR:
Nix is much much faster in the jungle.


False

Tiger starts out slower, but doubling the rate @ which you proc wriggle's makes you even faster @ every camp besides wariths (4 targets for phoenix) putting Tiger ahead

On top of that, Tiger ganks are at least 2x more effective than phoenix ganks

Tiger destroys baron and dragon.

Tiger takes down turrets in a second after the laner is dead if you sucessifuly gank

Tiger counterjungles much better as you don't clear the entire camp and take down the big minions instead

Tiger Udyr is more likely to survive 1x1 encounters in the jungle

Phoenix does have better AoE damage late game for teamfights but that's not a garanteed point for them as focusing all your DPS on a single important target (like their AD carry) for a faster kill is often better than spreading your damage to the tanks and bruisers.


As for runes, flat AD reds and quints, why? Have you seen the scaling on Q's DoT? that **** is crazy and it gives you a very unexpected early game burst damage, plus it just makes the only part of the jungle where you're slower than phoenix a lot faster.

After wriggle's unless you're fed to hell you will want to almost always go full tank, your own base damage+Tiger DoT is a hell of a lot of base DPS and you will never be considered a low Threat target with just that, just give the enemy carry hell and laugh as your defenses tank the enemy team for your own team as they try to stop you.




Phoenix Udyr isn't even a choice anymore, GD just takes too long to realize things.


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Zero000x000

Senior Member

01-21-2012

I couldn't find any Tiger specific jungle guides, but in general it's the same as any standard jungler. Boots/Cloth into Wriggle's into whatever the heck dps items you want. +15 AD runes, 21 offense masteries. Look up Stonewall008's videos for how to jungle Tiger (or hybrid R/Q). You gank more often Phoenix because in a straight up farm fight or counterjungling flight Tiger loses without blue buff, or just straight up lose after Phoenix gets some items. You find low health targets and you just go in and hit them with a Tiger proc once. That's a full 300 damage and should straight out win lane for your side, if not kill the enemy. Know that you can use Tiger, switch into Bear, and Tiger proc will still activate on first target hit.


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Emperor Seth

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Zero000x000:
I couldn't find any Tiger specific jungle guides, but in general it's the same as any standard jungler. Boots/Cloth into Wriggle's into whatever the heck dps items you want. +15 AD runes, 21 offense masteries. Look up Stonewall008's videos for how to jungle Tiger (or hybrid R/Q). You gank more often Phoenix because in a straight up farm fight or counterjungling flight Tiger loses without blue buff, or just straight up lose after Phoenix gets some items. You find low health targets and you just go in and hit them with a Tiger proc once. That's a full 300 damage and should straight out win lane for your side, if not kill the enemy. Know that you can use Tiger, switch into Bear, and Tiger proc will still activate on first target hit.


Speaking of this, something else I forgot, start the game, trigger tiger @ your base and go wait for whichever camp you want to start @ to respawn, your first hit will trigger the DoT even if you wait 2 minutes for it.


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Voyager I

Senior Member

01-21-2012

It's not just about jungling. Phoenix Udyr can go Wit's End > Tank Items and still put out pretty good damage in team fights. Tiger Udyr does more damage, but only by building damage items.


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Nullbringer

Senior Member

01-21-2012

According to Stonewall, Tiger is just 10 secs slower than Phoenix overall. In fact, I like to take Phoenix @ lv1 just for the first camps, then build as Tiger

R > W > Q > E > Q whenever possible > W whenever possible > E whenever possible > Last 2 points @ R


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Nova

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Well my late game Udyr build has 5 Tiger 5 Turtle 3 Bear 5 Phoenix...It's possible to mix it up a bit and I feel Phoenix helps you reach late game a bit faster


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Zero000x000

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Emperor Seth:
False

Tiger starts out slower, but doubling the rate @ which you proc wriggle's makes you even faster @ every camp besides wariths (4 targets for phoenix) putting Tiger ahead

On top of that, Tiger ganks are at least 2x more effective than phoenix ganks

Tiger destroys baron and dragon.

Tiger takes down turrets in a second after the laner is dead if you sucessifuly gank

Tiger counterjungles much better as you don't clear the entire camp and take down the big minions instead

Tiger Udyr is more likely to survive 1x1 encounters in the jungle

Phoenix does have better AoE damage late game for teamfights but that's not a garanteed point for them as focusing all your DPS on a single important target (like their AD carry) for a faster kill is often better than spreading your damage to the tanks and bruisers.


As for runes, flat AD reds and quints, why? Have you seen the scaling on Q's DoT? that **** is crazy and it gives you a very unexpected early game burst damage, plus it just makes the only part of the jungle where you're slower than phoenix a lot faster.

After wriggle's unless you're fed to hell you will want to almost always go full tank, your own base damage+Tiger DoT is a hell of a lot of base DPS and you will never be considered a low Threat target with just that, just give the enemy carry hell and laugh as your defenses tank the enemy team for your own team as they try to stop you.




Phoenix Udyr isn't even a choice anymore, GD just takes too long to realize things.


Hopefully I don't sound demeaning, but there are many misconceptions here.

Phoenix jungles faster at all points of the game, Wriggle's procs or not. In fact, Wriggle's barely jungles faster than double Doran's Tiger. It's easy to see that Phoenix's AoE Aura out-damage Tiger procs (even on single targets) and most of the Wriggle procs, and people forget that Phoenix gives a large amount of AD to jungle faster as well, not to mention the third hit splash.

Tiger ganks aren't better. This is completely situational. Phoenix tends to be stronger overall, as there are more things for Phoenix to gank, and because Phoenix optimally runs Movespeed quints and ganks 20 seconds earlier than Tiger. Tiger is better in certain cases though, mostly those where you don't have follow-up CC or damage and you just want to make people lose HP. Things like Janna, Ezreal, and Lee Sin are ganked easier by Tiger. In general, Tiger is better if and only you can't get the third hit of Phoenix off.

Phoenix does Dragon/Tiger just as well, though admittedly Tiger tanks it a bit better with single type damage and lifesteal to go with it.

Phoenix kills towers worse than Tiger because Wit's End and the splash doesn't hit towers, so conceded Tiger is better at killing towers. Though remember Phoenix is also better at pushing.

Phoenix clears faster and therefore also gets to counter-jungler earlier. He's also more difficult to 1v1, and moves faster. I wouldn't say Tiger is better at counterjungling buff camps. Phoenix can leave small minions behind too.

Why would Tiger be any better at surviving 1v1s? Phoenix does more damage in sustained fights, and is faster and builds more resistances early on.

That's not how teamfights work. Most of the time Udyr is Turtle/Bear anyways. Unless you are playing against idiots, you shouldn't be able to attack their carry unless you Flash (otherwise someone like Skarner would be able OP because they can ult the carry every fight O_o). Udyr's primary strength late-game (though I think you're talking about mid-game) isn't to do damage and burst ****, because that's what carries are for late-game. By late-game Udyr is just a soak with CC. Early/mid-game, Phoenix Udyr does more direct damage with the third hit than Tiger anyways, as well as the lack of need to autoattack as much means Phoenix can move faster and keep up with targets. So unless you can't hit the third autoattack and stand next to whoever you're attacking, Tiger isn't better in a fight. Tiger's strength has always been damage exchange potential. If you can't turn around and fight Tiger Udyr, you're forced to run. Phoenix on the other hand can get poked, but you're also better at just forcing people into combat.


Phoenix and Tigers are both choices (so is Hybrid Phoenix/Tiger). Phoenix indeed is the overall stronger option. GD does have a lot of misconceptions about things though. The whole "Only Phoenix for jungle, only Tiger for lane" is really dumb. They have different strengths, with Phoenix overall stronger, but Tiger not far behind.


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