Sejuani and female champs

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NightWolf1452346

Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!
It's great having a professional designer to explain their thought process in character design. Loving Riot for this. Thank you, IronStylus.

All right, just putting this up front: I am not a professional artist or designer or anything, I just know a little about art and "presentation" (for the lack of better word...I'll explain) Also, all these are just my opinion ... Don't flame me too much...please? I do apologize if I am speaking out of my place and sounding presumptuous…
Oh, and this has a lot of background info. Just skip to the last paragraph if you don’t really want to read an essay. Sorry

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/4719-Gender-Games

A few months ago, I ran across this video on the Escapist Magazine website by MovieBob, and frankly, he's got some great points. A lot of people (women included) don't really dislike the skimpy or sexy outfits, according to MovieBob. Everyone likes to see pretty/sexy/attractive things; humans have a tendency for that. What women have an issue with is the way female characters are presented. It's one thing to put women in sexy outfit (Sona, Sivir, Katarina), but it's another thing to pose them in an...alluring condition, let's say that for now.

If one look at, say, classic Eve. Okay, skimpy leather outfit, check, hot Asari skin, check (Mass Effect fans, anyone??), relatively large chest, check. BUT WAIT! She's in a dark, dank cellar, with an open door glowing red (associating with blood or fighting, etc.), standing in a battle-ready pose... Anyone still want to risk their neck for a pick-up line? Despite the outfit, Eve radiates danger, which is actually enhanced by her lack of proper defense; she is so confident that she doesn't need any armor. Now THAT is good character presentation. On the other hand, look at Chinese LoL's classsic Eve. Well, she's lit up by a spotlight, figuratively. She's laying on the ground. And she's looking at the camera with desire/longing/lust... Same character, same outfit, completely different message. I'll stop about the Chinese artworks before I make this into a freaking thesis… (ah, too late)

There are SO many female characters and skins and arts made by Riot (U.S. Riot, that is) that are just well-made and attractive, yet not degrading to women in general. Riven, Leona, High Commander Katarina, Karma, classic Ashe (a bit of an exception, since she’s just standing), and the list goes on. Riot should be thrice-applauded for that. With Sejuani, the point of contention seems to surround her outfit and the possible message it presents. However, all that can be qualified as “degrading to women” is her outfit. I think what really makes Sejuani stands out this time is the unreasonableness of her gear. Let me do a bit of comparison to illustrate:

Leona: Girl who inherited legendary armor; protection-focused, fully covered in almost all her skins; Valkyrie skin is a bit of an exception, but the message is the same; radiates toughness and determination.

Riven: One-woman army attempting to change the minds of an entire city state, by herself; Full of purpose, grim determination to strife onward; completely covered in armor or clothes.
P.S. Please don’t put her in a bunny suit…Just, don’t… Doesn’t fit her character at all… (Holiday skins=different circumstances=sure, why not?)

Katarina: icon of her city-state; confident, deadly, despite (or perhaps due to?) the revealing outfit; message similar to Eve.

Karma: exudes wisdom and enlightenment; another one of the most conservatively dressed women in LoL; frail body type, but her pose reveals her inner power anyways.

Miss Fortune (an “anti-example”): Skimpy outfite; large chest; sometimes the alluring poses; sends the sexy, lustful message.

And now, Sejuani: Rides a freaking boar (‘nuff said); giant, menacing Morningstar in mid-swing; shouting battle cry; ice flying everywhere (even her surrounding is giving in to her might);but bikini leather armor…in a tundra…

Does that last bit seem particularly out of place? I hope so. Because it is! If one simply takes Sejuani and examines her, fanservice isn’t really the problem here, it’s really the lack of reason for her outfit. And to be honest, who really care if Sivir is baring her mid riff in a game? PUSH MORE TOWERS!! Or whether Nidalee wears leather bikini for real? SPEAR THAT SQUISHY!! Sejuani, in comparison, is not at all fan-service-y or degrading or whatever. It’s just that her leather bikini’s out of place, and she happened to be the one picked out by offended players this time. Victim of Circumstances.

Uhh…I think I had a point in here somewhere… Oh yeah. Thank you, Riot for making sensible female designs; they are AWESOME (Riven fanboy here…). Sejuani’s outfit is actually just fine, if only a bit awkward for her background. There are lots of worse examples in gaming in terms of fan service. If her outfit needs a redesign, it’s because it is unrealistic, not because it is degrading. Just because LoL has all these attractive females doesn’t mean Riot needs to compensate with an “ungly female champ.” That’s similar to saying, “well, if there are all these skimpy outfits for women, let’s start putting lots of men in thongs and tights” (Pentheon is an exception: he’s from 300) Now, if they can pull it off because they have a working, fitting idea of a repulsive female champ (like a banshee), kudos to Riot, but it shouldn’t be because the game is somehow morally skewed for all the hot women they put it.

Edit: Thx for the couple of upvotes, didn't actually think anyone want to read this...
Also, it seems that her lore does explain why she is wearing bikini in a tundra. Although this does not quite excuse the design of being "fan-servicy," it is a nice way out. *Slow clap for Riot's cleverness


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IS13c7fafe7804f7429d10e

Member

01-13-2012

Why get eye-cancer when you can get eye-candy?

Joking aside, I don't see much of a problem. Women in fantasy realms have hourglass figures, men have a six pack and broad shoulders.
I mean, the only real exception is Ezreal and he isn't full aged last I checked.

Also keep in mind that "fantasy" always has loose connections to "sexual fantasy". In fact, many myths were born out of this.


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Cryten0

Senior Member

01-13-2012

I applaud the sensabilities of the red posts and a great deal of the community for discussing this topic so well. I will say my 2 cents even if it gets ignored. I would like to see a strong female character like Leona and lux (default skin anyway), who dont need overly boobacious outfits to be good characters. I want a League of Legends equivlent fo Samus Aran. Kick Arse girl character who dosnt need to show herself off. No this character is a warrior maiden ala Arturia in Fate/Stay Night, you dare question her sexyness and she will cut your head off.

I feel Shyvana and some of Kayles skins got really close, I lookforward to Riot surprising me with something in the future. Also I wounder if anyone will kick Janna out of top place on the Mega Boobige scale, -cause some eye candy sometimes is nice as well.

PS The idea of an Old Witch character I've read on other thread also seem like a great character path to take.


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Crosbie

Senior Member

01-13-2012

*** sells. Not sure how old that expression is, but it's certainly older than anybody in this thread is. In fact the notion has been true since the dawn of mankind, you'd think people would be over it by now?

You don't see threads started by the male players complaining because the majority of the male champs are masculine, muscle-ripped warriors with a great tan and perfect teeth, when in fact I doubt the majority of the male population are anything close.

It's just a game. Please keep the feminist wars for places that require equality, like the work place. I (and most) play League of Legends for amusement and enjoyment.

*EDIT* wow you can't say s e x on these forums? How old are we, Riot? 12?


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Spiderbubble

Senior Member

01-13-2012

I don't care if my LoL ladies look thin/frail/skanky.


Leona's still the classiest out of all of them.


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nantucket

Junior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loc View Post
This may have been partially valid in the past, when LoL had serious graphical limitations. But as of recently, there has been an amazing increase in the level of fidelity we see in the models and textures. Compare Mistletoe LeBlanc to her other skins, for example. But that aside, this is not a good argument because they players know the gender of the champ. It's evident by the bio, the voice, and yes, even the model, because it's very possible to visually indicate that someone is a woman without using her breasts.

And yes, if it suits the character I would like fat female champs. And strong, and lean, and stocky, and whatever. So long as it suits them.

There are many, many, many body types to use for female characters, just as there are just as many to use for male characters. People simply don't seem to use them or acknowledge them.

And people call Ezreal a girl because...well, I have no idea why. I suppose it might be because he's the least masculine of champs. That isn't to say that he's terribly effeminate, but I suppose this is because of what there is to compare him with. While we're on the subject, why not an effeminate male champion?
Then how come people had a problem telling kayle was a girl until her helmet was removed. And to this day people have issues telling what Kennen is.
I'm not for or against the threads point. But the people saying that exaggerated looks are needed to tell the difference on the model are right. Not all people read the bios, and Kayle is a perfect example of that.


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swan2swan

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Senior Member

01-13-2012

I'm just going to share a few thoughts on Sejuani...before you TLDR, I'll say that this is divided into two points: AGAINST her current design and FOR her current design.

AGAINST: When I first read about Sejuani in the JoJ several months ago, I was excited at the realization that this was going to be a future champion, a nemesis for Ashe. I thought about what her weapon might be, checked out concept designs, and thought about what she might have potential for. Then Phreak gave her name as the upcoming patch, and I, forgive me, phreaked out. I was stoked. She was going to be a first-day buy, I have 5300 IP banked, and I could easily raise the funds to get her.

Then I saw the art spotlight vid on YouTube and noticed that she had a mace and chain, and that sealed the deal. Oh, and a boar? YES. Hecks, yeah. About time we had a rider in the game, and a pig at the same time. And I watched the spotlight excitedly...and then noticed the bare midriff. And everything just went blah. The excitement fell from my shoulders like a melting ice cream cone as the video continued and I realized that this woman was running around the arctic in a swimsuit. The insta-buy vanished, and it suddenly became a full-fledged debate.

However...

FOR: I have been able to argue against myself on this matter. The main point being that Ashe is branded as a hero, which would make Sejuani a villain. As a villain, she gains a little bit of an excuse in regards to her attire. Furthermore, this could be some dramatic statement as to just how bad-rump-roast she is, living as a part of winter. Perhaps she was born of snow or something. I don't know enough about her yet...but I don't know if this argument is enough to make me forget about the possibility of icicle-spiked armor. Though that might be impractical, too. If we wanted to make everyone happy except the artists, who would cry, we could just have her clad in ice--semi-transparent armor that allows you to see what's underneath while still retaining battlefield practicality.

It may be too late to change her particles and art, but the fact that my anticipation hit a brick wall just because of her outfit is disappointing.


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Aaydin

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Senior Member

01-13-2012

I have to also post one other thing to advocate new champions being released that don't fit the super sexy visually appealing standard:

After prolonged and over-saturated exposure to the "*** sells" idea and the visual utilization of this technique, I think it stands to reason that something that obviously breaks this mold will be successful as it is out of the ordinary and "new". I'd buy a witch/hag or monstrous beast outright even if they contradict my play style but I may not be so inclined to do so if the champ is another hourglass figure babe.

Granted, the *** sells idea is one that's not lost on me, I'm no exception to this rule, but I do appreciate a drop of dye in a bucket full of water and usually the splash of color it provides is eye catching enough for me to want it.


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warfaire

Junior Member

01-13-2012

they should have made it look like a female gragas


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Uccisore

Senior Member

01-13-2012

The thing about feminists is, they don't understand women.

Mark my words- if they made a fat chick champ like Gragas, women wouldn't play it. You would be doing fat chicks no favors, they would all still play Lux and Morg.

Moreover, if fat-chick jokes were made in the forums like fat-guy jokes are made about Gragas, it would lead to a nuclear holocaust of flames on the forums.