Heimerdinger Exhaustively Examined

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EnderDDT

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Senior Member

01-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOW5ER View Post
you can already CS deny your turrets by placing a new one, adding functionality
To simply scuttle your turret before it dies is very situational if it had a short range. The only way it would help is if your oppenent is attacking the younger turret and you are not zoned. I only see it adding to the micro management of his early game. 12 gold per turret is not that much + deny plank was removed for that unfun reason.

Have you considered the idea if his passive cuasing negative effects to his opponents either through range or auto attacks? (possibly shred) And I forgot to point out that as it is his current passive promotes a high amount of aggression ( not stupid amounts) , adding to that and some resistances he would have more ability to do main stream damage exchange or be more active. I think you can have a lot of drastic effects on heim just by messing with his passive. I also did a little experimenting and for the turret ammo thing 5 seconds would usually give you 30 shots after the as buff. That in turn was usually enough to kill 3.3 minions (yes or no in last hiting). That's no proxy use with the exception of you running and laying it down along your escape path for kiting. I consider proxy use of his turrets to be highly important especially for getting the farm that he is highly reliant on. Given yes it makes the neccesity for him to baby sit his turrets and possibly lead him to be active doing it but the amount of ammo those turrets would carry as the game goes on would need to be increased so he can be more involved in moving team plays.
The grenade changes and missile changes might have the effect you want but I don't think I can see all their consequences with out puting them to use. I can say they seem to be a ramp up affect of his abilities to curve the difficulty his oppenents have to deal with at such and such time in a way other than tweaking his numbers. I think that just adds more to his situational power; late game having 5 missiles more consistenty would in my Opinion be Op even without testing.

Also another idea with wich a good opinion on would be nice: what about having increased movement speed between the path of his turrets? I can see this having the effect of heimer being on the front line in between them or an escape route between the front line and his next turret. It would also promote better turret placement
12 gold becomes a big deal over time if it comes from a turret that ran out of ammo and so just sits there waiting to be killed. Being able to scrap the old turrets is a much bigger deal in that instance than in the current one where we assume that they can fire back on anyone who wants to kill them (though we know better, that is still the assumption). Getting money from minions in lane or jungle creep requires some risk due to the fact that they fire back and that (in lane) the opponent is wanting to do the same thing. Walking up to some half-dead empty turrets that had been aimed at dragon or barron is where the issue will come up.

I haven't looked too much into that but most of the useful things of that type have already been done to one point or another. Fiddles reduces MR, Urgot reduces the opponent's damage, Kassadin takes less damage, Soraka increases MR, etc. The main reasons why I thought mana was to both offset his stupidly high mana costs and for the interaction with his turrets. The current passive needs to change, it causes too many problems early game, but what it needs to change to is a much more difficult question. Perhaps he could get extra movement speed when running away from opponents, not only is that unique but would allow him to move toward battle more brazenly if he knows there is the possibility of escape. I tried to avoid things that were too complicated (such as running faster between turrets would be (how would you even program that?)) because the more of a hassle the suggestions are to impliment and test, the less likely they or anything else is likely to be done. In addition that particular suggestion would encourage players to make a line of turrets back toward safety, which is the opposite of the "throw everything out there" approach that RIOT wants to encourage.

5 rockets constantly does seem a bit excessive. Perhaps having the ulti passively give slow to the rockets and only actively give the extra rockets? The real reason why the rockets are used to poke so much (on poke comps) is the fact that they count as a "single target spell" for Riley's Crystal Septer, allowing it to give a significant slow (a holdover from when it fired the rockets in succession rather than all at once). This could compensate for having them correctly labeled as a multi-target spell, helping to keep the current feel while addressing that bug.

in your experiments with the turrets did you use the early game or the late game turrets? I would expect the AoE rounds to increase the kill rate of minions a bit higher than that (simply because they stand so close together) but not by much. 5 extra seconds along with the original 20 seconds, using your numbers, would allow it to take out 23 minions, or over 3.5 waves at lv 16. At one wave every thirty seconds, that averages at about a duration of a 1 minute 45 seconds assuming you use only one turrett, 3 minutes 30 seconds with two turrets, and 5 minutes 15 seconds with all three (assuming they don't die to minion fire first or fire in some weird pattern that hurts their duration). Not sure how those numbers figure into your thoughts on them not lasting long enough, but I just thought I would point that out.

As for moving team plays, any newly placed turrets would have full mana, and with the ammo stock method of placing turrets, you can easily drop all your turrets when a moving fight breaks out.

Of course, there is no way to know exactly what the entire range of effects of any change will have. You can look closely and predict, but there is still a limit to even that. Even so, with what some of the RIOT members have said about overloading characters, it is difficult to know what they would like in terms of streamlining his capabilities.


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EnderDDT

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Senior Member

01-30-2012

Bump

And, after thinking it over perhaps just having the turrets drain mana per shot would be much simpler and more straightforward. Mana per shot rather than over time so that they could retain utility rather than being nothing but a pseudo "Decryptify" (see Swain). The difference between the two is that the turrets can be dropped as wards, give money when destroyed, and last longer; while Decryptify is targetable, is spamable, works with on hit effects (Rilies and Spell Vamp most importantly), deals more damage, includes a greater slow without needing an ultimate, and can be boosted with his "torment".

Having them drain mana constantly would, of course, require that their initial mana cost be greatly reduced and you would need some way of deactivating old turrets if mana-suck was to be avoided. It could be done, and probably far more easily than giving turrets mana of their own.


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crzymdscntst

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Did this thread die? better not have.

Also, a High mana drain skill is bad without a spammable one due to Mana Regen being a limited resource. Spammability of another skill would be key for an AA, to offset the mana drain. At 1.25 AS and 1.85 or something AS upon placement, that's a pretty steep cost either way.


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EnderDDT

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Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by crzymdscntst View Post
Did this thread die? better not have.

Also, a High mana drain skill is bad without a spammable one due to Mana Regen being a limited resource. Spammability of another skill would be key for an AA, to offset the mana drain. At 1.25 AS and 1.85 or something AS upon placement, that's a pretty steep cost either way.
I'm still bumping it and watching it. But without any Red involvement there is little we can do but throw ideas around.

Currently all Heimer's skills are high mana drain ones, though how high the mana drain from a "per shot" ability can easily be modified by reducing the mana per shot. Considering that Anivia's ulti has a true AoE, applies a slow, applies an AS reduction, cannot be stopped except by removing Anivia, and applies on-hit effects (such as spell vamp and Riley's); the cost for Heimer's area denial ability that works similarly (his turrets) should be well below that. And that isn't even factoring in the crazy synergy that she has with all three of her other moves, making her stronger and requiring slight overall nerfs to keep her balanced as compared to what she might be without that synergy. I tried Anivia out in a bot game and all I needed to pretty much get rid of my mana problems was an Archangel's staff, and I was spamming my moves to see how long I could go before running out so long as I used them as needed. The answer for how long, long enough to push two and a half lanes all the way to base and then sit in the base for almost 3 minutes spamming her ulti every time a wave of minions came along and bursting everything every time an enemy bot came along (no blue buff). I had to remember to turn off her ulti when it wasn't needed, which is part of why I pointed out that there needed to be a way to scrap turrets to obtain the same effect, but this does show that an equilibrium can be reached even if it is hard.


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Ars Memoriae

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOW5ER View Post
How many bumps does it take to get to the center of a red's attention?
Post it on General Discussion, Red's Hardly post as much when it comes to Champion Feedback Sub-forum. 90% of most Red posts are in GD


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ItsJustPain

Senior Member

01-30-2012

well good u keeping it alive
I love using him
but hate how he is always the first target in a team fight
and his turrets are 1 hit late game
which is mega stupid
Yet they don't intend to fix this


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Ripplez

Senior Member

01-31-2012

repost this in the general forum as well. good topics deserve to be seen by more people


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EnderDDT

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Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SadisticTaco View Post
Post it on General Discussion, Red's Hardly post as much when it comes to Champion Feedback Sub-forum. 90% of most Red posts are in GD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripplez View Post
repost this in the general forum as well. good topics deserve to be seen by more people
I already did repost in the General Discussion. Here is the link if you want to go check it out:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1696580


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EnderDDT

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Senior Member

02-01-2012

BUMP, for GREAT justice!


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Felldark

Senior Member

02-02-2012

Good solid post.