Heimerdinger Exhaustively Examined

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BOW5ER

Senior Member

01-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderDDT View Post
After seeing exactly what their concerns are, it seems that he needs more risk added to his kit, in addition to the late-game scaling and other things necessary to make him viable. He also probably suffers from some "victory through ignorance", in that he only does well when the opponent is ignorant of the long term danger that his turrets possess. All these problems need to be addressed. I could work out the math on what numbers would be required but instead I will just give generalities whenever necessary.

I would start by having his passive give mana rather than health and reducing the range to 350-400. This nerfs his early game sustain, indirectly nerfs his turrets (since they won't regen), but also makes his passive useful throughout the game. The reduction in range also adds some risk to his passive, since it forces him to clump up with his allies for long periods of time in order to gain useful effect and prevents him from remaining too far from the action.

I would cause his turrets to use mana per shot, which would require Heimer to remain close to his turrets or else have them run out of shots (15-20 seconds worth of shooting seems reasonable) thus adding another aspect of risk into his kit. With this change there would be much less difficulty with fixing the other problems by increasing the range of the turrets and letting them scale at a 1.5 ap-to-health ratio with an innitial HP of 150 (thus making them a little less defensive as a caster minion at lv 1 without AP but scaling better into late game) in replacement for the health they currently get per Heimer level. He could even have his third turret back (replacing the extra health level and moving the fire down to lv4) because using the turrets would be dangerous due to the necessity to be close and the gold given on destruction. The increased squishiness at low levels would also stop his low level dragon attempts but the changes would allow him to participate (but not solo) in an attempt at barron. See ulti for further changes, including a increased mana capacity per ulti level (allowing them to fire for 5 more seconds per level before needing refueling). The ulti would still heal the towers and give slowing shots. I would also change the firing particle to make it much more obvious what the turrett was attacking so that those unfamiliar with Heimer would understand the obvious counter to being attacked by the turrets. Everything else would remain the same.

I would cause his W to start out with 2 missiles, but adjust the damage to increase the low level base damage and raise the AP scaling (.05 should be enough). Each level of his ulti would permanently give him an extra missile (increasing to 2+3=5 at lv3) and activating his ulti would apply the same slow as is added to the turrets. The spell would also be correctly flagged as AoE rather than single target for item purposes.

I would reduce the particle speed of his E slightly but massively increase the scaling. I would also cause him to fire the missile at the beginning of the channel as opposed to the end, making him more able to hit at close range but not removing the penalty associated with the use. In addition his ulti would passively increase the maximum range and actively cause it to stun in the entire AoE, in addition to the normal effect.

I would first remove the chanel time on his ulti and increase the duration per level to 5-10-15 seconds (cooldown would need to be adjusted to compensate). I would then cause the ulti to have both a passive and an active effect on each of his other spells. Passively it would increase the mana pool on his turrets to the point where it could continue firing for 5 more seconds per level; it would increase the number of rockets by 1 per level; it would increase the maximum range of his grenade per level. Actively it would heal his turrets and add a slow to both his turrets and rockets, it would also cause the entire grenade area to stun on hit. I would also remove the passive CDR and just lower the cooldown on his abilities to compensate.

This increases the ability for Heimer to get in there and make big plays, allowing him to be much more aggressive. Every ability except his rockets would be changed to promote a much better risk/reward dynamic; passive encourages clumping and remaining in the center of the party, "Q" requires you to remain near the front of the battle to continue working, "E" will require you to be close to hit someone who is paying attention due to the slower speed but will be satisfying when it does. To a lessor degree the reduction of the low level missiles will also require better positioning in order to poke effectively. Since he will have a similar level of farm, due to his early game turret and passive nerfs, the hits should be much more on-par with other pokers and so should not be any more of a problem than theirs are.

In addition, besides the change that causes his turret to use mana and the change to the turret attack animation to make it more obvious, the rest of the changes are extremely straightforward in terms of programming and require no additional graphics work. Testing would likely take a month or so, but the rest could be put in place almost immediately.

These are just my current ideas and are likely to change. I'm still struggling with how to make his turrets long-term (ie: not temporary) but prevent them from being a drop-and-run type of high rewards/low risk ability; because as long as they are viewed as having that problem their late game scaling, squishiness, and range will almost certainly remain untouched. As long as he remains a super-farmer early game, his ranged abilities will always seem overpowered, so that is the other thing that needs to be changed.

Ideas and feedback are always welcome.
Good idea for having a ammo system for the turrets and Heimer is the recharge/power source. The thing is the already aggressive play for some heimer's will go well with this but it eliminates his proxy use of his turrets that is needed to counter his squishyness often. You would probably also hear a lot of Q_Q from opponents getting literally free gold when the turrets are on empty. When it comes to the range of changes on his other skills you would make him more dependent on getting aggressive but that also makes him easier to shut down without the range he would of had before. I feel this might exaggerate his current problems and would either make him MORE destroyer or destroyee depending on how lucky he is in terms of skill and matchup and well ... luck. The ult changes feel like a touch in the right direction but at those sweeping changes it seems more like a way to satisfy his current condition and makes a less strategic kit with the exception of that turret idea.
With that new turret change should they still get that short buff to attack speed at deployment? with possible free bullets during that time.


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PeaceofWar

Senior Member

01-28-2012

This needs to get more looks. The (not-so) revered inventor must be placed back into a position of prominence in the League. His time in the shadows will hopefully end soon enough...


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MotoPsychoo

Senior Member

01-28-2012

The issue about giving free gold to the enemy is really something to consider. The turrets are weak as it is.

Heimer plays a strategy game by placing his turrets. I think you should give him the ability to remove his own turrets (something like a smite). Reasons: deniing gold from the enemy team. More strategy use. It is dumb that you cant control wich turret gets destroyed by placing a new one. If you destroy a turret, you get a turret slot and mana refound. So it is as if you moving the turret.


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Whistlefoot

Junior Member

01-28-2012

His rockets should targets champions first over minions same as his turrets, that or his turrets should be controled the same as annie's tibbers while his grenade should have a faster throw, his passive needs re-worked. Just my opinion.


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Whistlefoot

Junior Member

01-28-2012

In my opinion, his rockets need to target champions over minions and the same goes with his turrets or perhaps the turrets could be controlled just like annie's tibbers for targeting. The grenade throw needs a faster speed as it's to easily dodged, his passive needs re-worked and for his ultimate, while I think it's fine as is, mid/late game it has no real use besides to just fully heal his turrets.


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EnderDDT

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Senior Member

01-28-2012

Being quite frank, Heimer's rockets will never prioritize champions unless the range is reduced to the point of being an auto-attack; otherwise his rockets would count as free uncounterable damage which is a really frustrating thing to play against and adds nothing to the strategy of the game. The same thing goes for having his towers automatically target champions, unless they are nerfed to the point of only being useful against stupid or reckless people, for exactly the same reason (which, granted, is already the case but we are hoping have that aspect fixed rather than simply capitalizing on it). I say this because we are hoping to find solutions that will help Heimer become more /balanced/ such that he can compete, while these solutions will make him be able to compete without preserving balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOW5ER View Post
Good idea for having a ammo system for the turrets and Heimer is the recharge/power source. The thing is the already aggressive play for some heimer's will go well with this but it eliminates his proxy use of his turrets that is needed to counter his squishyness often. You would probably also hear a lot of Q_Q from opponents getting literally free gold when the turrets are on empty. When it comes to the range of changes on his other skills you would make him more dependent on getting aggressive but that also makes him easier to shut down without the range he would of had before. I feel this might exaggerate his current problems and would either make him MORE destroyer or destroyee depending on how lucky he is in terms of skill and matchup and well ... luck. The ult changes feel like a touch in the right direction but at those sweeping changes it seems more like a way to satisfy his current condition and makes a less strategic kit with the exception of that turret idea.
With that new turret change should they still get that short buff to attack speed at deployment? with possible free bullets during that time.
Part of the necessity of the changes, from what has been said, is to give more rewards for taking actions that are more risky. But I have also done what I can to ensure that Heimer would not become a character who is useless if not fed. His ranged skills would still be useful and would allow him to continue their contribution farther into the late game. His turrets would still work as proxy damage, but not forever unless you were willing to move forward to keep them refilled with "ammo". Perhaps his grenade doesn't need the speed decrease I spoke about (considering the speed and ratios of Gragas's "Barrel Roll", which is equil or better is most every way but one). The increase in the range on his grenade and constant number of rockets would also allow him to do something even when zoned (though not as much as if he were fed). These would preserve the advantages of most of Heimer's builds while giving him the ability to win the game without ever getting within striking distance of the enemy (one of his old problems that needs to be avoided).

What would you propose to do instead that would satisfy the needs (give him advantage for aggression, keep him from being a forever turtle, allow him to compete with other champions, not make him overpowered, etc.)?

Perhaps adding in a function to allow his "Q" to destroy a turret for free when he uses the skill on one that is already standing, the range of the skill is so short that it forces him to become unsafe to do that job. Or perhaps having the turrets give no gold when empty (or a greatly reduced amount) would be better? Or possibly both? I would be more inclined to do the first because it creates more strategy and punishes heimers for simply forgetting about their turrets (helping to keep their long-term nature balanced). People already QQ about turret destruction being used for free farm but the current problem comes down to their ease of destruction (they can be one-shotted or easily out-ranged), so it would be better to find a way to not cause another problem while attempting to fix the one.


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BOW5ER

Senior Member

01-28-2012

you can already CS deny your turrets by placing a new one, adding functionality
To simply scuttle your turret before it dies is very situational if it had a short range. The only way it would help is if your oppenent is attacking the younger turret and you are not zoned. I only see it adding to the micro management of his early game. 12 gold per turret is not that much + deny plank was removed for that unfun reason.

Have you considered the idea if his passive cuasing negative effects to his opponents either through range or auto attacks? (possibly shred) And I forgot to point out that as it is his current passive promotes a high amount of aggression ( not stupid amounts) , adding to that and some resistances he would have more ability to do main stream damage exchange or be more active. I think you can have a lot of drastic effects on heim just by messing with his passive. I also did a little experimenting and for the turret ammo thing 5 seconds would usually give you 30 shots after the as buff. That in turn was usually enough to kill 3.3 minions (yes or no in last hiting). That's no proxy use with the exception of you running and laying it down along your escape path for kiting. I consider proxy use of his turrets to be highly important especially for getting the farm that he is highly reliant on. Given yes it makes the neccesity for him to baby sit his turrets and possibly lead him to be active doing it but the amount of ammo those turrets would carry as the game goes on would need to be increased so he can be more involved in moving team plays.
The grenade changes and missile changes might have the effect you want but I don't think I can see all their consequences with out puting them to use. I can say they seem to be a ramp up affect of his abilities to curve the difficulty his oppenents have to deal with at such and such time in a way other than tweaking his numbers. I think that just adds more to his situational power; late game having 5 missiles more consistenty would in my Opinion be Op even without testing.

Also another idea with wich a good opinion on would be nice: what about having increased movement speed between the path of his turrets? I can see this having the effect of heimer being on the front line in between them or an escape route between the front line and his next turret. It would also promote better turret placement


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TheRealShenShady

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Member

01-28-2012

Well posted, imo his stats are crappy, but what he needs is more mobility or defense.


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ESTEpox

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Senior Member

01-28-2012

I Think Heimer migth use of some tweaks ( not buffs) , but all in all he is fun, viable character. Riot has improved him im some areas where he was leaking, like for example: When hes ulti is on he launches 5 misiles instead of 3, and any turret he deploys will be upgraded ( wich means, even if they destroy your turret or if you have to re-possition it, it will still be aplying frost effect and stuff).
I think riot has much more important priorities than Heim *wich i insist hes fine as he is*, like for example tweaking or tunning down the 'new swtong' champions we have. Wookong, Bolivear (never spected him to get a buff acutually), Shaco ( hes not that squishy anymore, you could lower his mobility or dmg output now wouldnt you?), Lee Sin ( YES Further!!!), Gp, Shyvana, Sivir? So on, So on.
Anyways im really looking foward for some buff to the old and forgoten champions, at least to get them closer to the new ones. ( either nerf the new or buff the oldies xD.. An ashe Innate and hawkshot merge!! Yeyyy :B)


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Atrox Primus

Senior Member

01-28-2012

Bump for justice!