Heimerdinger Exhaustively Examined

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Nataku

Junior Member

01-21-2012

I have thought about what would help Heimer and this is what I came up with to make him become a more balanced and useful Champion.

Turrets: Drop the Pen's / AE damage from base ability (Giving it to the Upgrade!!!). Have the different rank just give more turrets and HP/Armor/MR/AS ( ex: R1 1 Turret, R2 HP/Armor/MR , R3 2 Turrets, R4 HP/Armor/MR R5: AS) or something like that.

Rockets: For the most part other then their CD I have no real issue with this.

Grenade: Again the ability itself isn't the issue maybe up the stun or blind range.

Upgrade: This is the big one for me. This ultimate just seems holds him back. The CDR need to be removed from this ability or need to be switched to just reduce the CD of the ability so CDR item don't get hurt by it. What I would like to see is the core abilities just have lower CD's late game even if they start at what they are. Leaving Upgrade!!! to upgrade permanently what they have in it already.

Rank 1: Turret get APen/MPen; Rockets fire 1 more; Grenade: Moves faster

Rank2: Turrets get AE: Rockets: 1 more ; Grenade moves faster

Rank3: Turrets Slow; Rockets: 1 more; Grenade moves faster

Active: For 6/8/10sec (Would try and have it where with enough CDR,not full but not 0 you can use W;E twice at 16)
Turrets: Heals 45% AS (maybe Armor/MR);
Rockets: Champion seeking (Prioritizing);
Grenade: with the speed improvements already for the passive effects we can have the blind radius turned into its stun radius.

I think with changes like this (after AP ratios are matched with new CDs on core abilities) we would have a similar but much more useful Heimer.


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EnderDDT

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Senior Member

01-24-2012

Bump!


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Ishota

Senior Member

01-24-2012

Ty, great post for the heimerdinger lovers


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Ishota

Senior Member

01-24-2012

A good fix for heimer might be to be able to place turrets from a distance, alot of times, turrets are completely useless trying to engage a fight from a distance. And also, his ult should refresh turret timers... then id be happy.


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BOW5ER

Senior Member

01-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishota View Post
A good fix for heimer might be to be able to place turrets from a distance, alot of times, turrets are completely useless trying to engage a fight from a distance. And also, his ult should refresh turret timers... then id be happy.
Increased turret placement range would also help his team fight presence, If I didn't get my turrets in a team fight before hand I ed up having to bounce in and out of the team fight as my skills come off of cd


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EnderDDT

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Senior Member

01-26-2012

I finally found where most of FeralPony's posts are, and it is mainly in one thread. The difficulty was that they are on the EUW server. In it he confirms that he is not the person directly in charge of the changes, though he is the main person working on it. He also confirms that Heimer has not been completely forgotten (as of 10 days ago). Earlier in the same thread he listed the main problems as being these:

1) Make Heimer less frustrating to play against
2) Make Heimer more fun to play
3) Slide Heimer into a more active role to reduce passivity and allow him to play offensively should he desire.

Here is the source.
http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=180534

I also found this by Ezrial:
"I can say that we are not thoroughly impressed by his current passive. We would like to change it, however, there are a number of more critical changes that we would rather focus on for his kit (i.e. the anti fun of his long range / turrets, and the lack of fun in using his ultimate). So at the end of the day, while we would like to update it, it would take a backseat to more important changes."

This idea of long range being "anti-fun" was written less than a month before Xerith came out, and Ezrial refers to Xerith, speaking about his "siege mode" in the very same post (so it isn't like Xerith's range was a surprise). This was the last time he spoke about Heimer, and was about 4 months ago.

Here is the source:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...1#post14605221

I am not sure what plans they have for him or what they could possibly be hoping to do with him or want out of him. He is the squishiest hero and exceptionally weak against ganks, but this comes in return for having a number of ranged abilities, including his towers, so that he can keep away from the center of things. His "passivity" comes from the fact that, in a 1-on-1 battle, most anyone can kill him (past mid-game) and so a successful Heimer /can't/ be aggressive or else he starts feeding. Compare him with any other character (Anivia makes an especially good example since her ulti and heimer's turrets serve a similar goal during late game) and it becomes obvious how "poking to death", which is almost certainly the thing that makes him annoying, is all he is fit to do.

That said, is it better for a character to be annoying but no real threat, or frustrating because there is nothing that can be done against him? I understand that in Heimer's past he was a character that nothing could stop reliably. His rockets automatically dealt damage to champions at longer that tower range, his grenade could snipe towers from outside of range, and his turrets would grow more powerful over time till he himself could count as two or three heroes. I understand why he was nerfed and what players are afraid of seeing again and that all of the abilities that made this possible are gone (rockets do not prioritize champions, grenades do not hurt towers, turrets do not passively scale infinitely with each shot). I also understand that every single one of his moves deals less damage, his rockets can be reliably avoided without consequence by any champion who pays attention, his grenade is an extreme pain to hit and is lackluster when it does during the late game, and his turrets are squishy gold farms for enemy players who are either ranged or know how to let a minion take the first hit. High numbers on the "range" variable mean nothing if you can't hit. If range was the problem than Caitlyn and CogMaw would be bigger offenders, able to lay down much more constant and more damaging attacks, often at longer range, and they are much safer while doing it. Lots of characters have long range pokes and even long ranged nukes (Xerith, Korki, Victor, Brand, Ashe, Rumble, etc.), and yet those characters don't get the same complaints that Heimer gets.

The true "anti-fun" that Heimer possesses is his demoralizing early game. Considering that his passive gives him health and his move set that is made to deal damage to someone rushing him, any attempt to harass him is met with a spam of pokes and some regen making the trade negative for the enemy and making his pokes seem far more powerful than they are. By the time the laining phase has ended Heimer is far more farmed thanks to the compounding nature of edging out the enemy early along with his moves that push regardless of player desire. His damage doesn't fall off till after full team fights have begun, and in those circumstances the enemy doesn't realize how little he now does, all they remember is how devastating his poke used to be a couple minutes ago. Even if they win, the main thing they remember is huddling in a 2v1 versus a heimer who sat just outside of their turret's range and let the minions take the tower as though he didn't need to do the work himself. They remember how Heimer's ranged moves seem to snipe them with such power that it melted through their health without explanation, not knowing that heimer had two to three times the CS they had at that point. And when Heimer gets weak, all they see is the mass of explosions of a team fight and remember the direct confrontations from before.

Annoying and frustrating to play against? Absolutely. Toxic to the game and absolutely needs to be changed? Completely. But reducing his range and hurting the utility of his towers will not fix the problem. Even if he only had one turret that he could only put out for 15 seconds and his other moves had decreased range by 100 each; he would still be an annoying, frustrating, toxic character. The reason is because those things are not the issue, they are simply what stands out /because/ of the true issue.


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BOW5ER

Senior Member

01-26-2012

yes he is strong and maybe to strong early game that needs to be fixed regardless of his seriously weak mid to late game which needs to be fixed too. Heimerdinger's numbers are not easy to balance. Increasing his base stats, ratios, fixing ult would fix his late game issues a good deal but that opens up a can of worms when it comes to his early game. And a lot of his play style revolves around his passive game play. Which stems from his serious squishyness and a kit that allows him to play as such through: the proxy use of his turrets and long ranged abilities. His true issue seems to stem from the play style he's forced to use to survive. But how would you adjust his numbers to do all this but not make him a miniature version of Yorick?


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EnderDDT

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Senior Member

01-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOW5ER View Post
yes he is strong and maybe to strong early game that needs to be fixed regardless of his seriously weak mid to late game which needs to be fixed too. Heimerdinger's numbers are not easy to balance. Increasing his base stats, ratios, fixing ult would fix his late game issues a good deal but that opens up a can of worms when it comes to his early game. And a lot of his play style revolves around his passive game play. Which stems from his serious squishyness and a kit that allows him to play as such through: the proxy use of his turrets and long ranged abilities. His true issue seems to stem from the play style he's forced to use to survive. But how would you adjust his numbers to do all this but not make him a miniature version of Yorick?
After seeing exactly what their concerns are, it seems that he needs more risk added to his kit, in addition to the late-game scaling and other things necessary to make him viable. He also probably suffers from some "victory through ignorance", in that he only does well when the opponent is ignorant of the long term danger that his turrets possess. All these problems need to be addressed. I could work out the math on what numbers would be required but instead I will just give generalities whenever necessary.

I would start by having his passive give mana rather than health and reducing the range to 350-400. This nerfs his early game sustain, indirectly nerfs his turrets (since they won't regen), but also makes his passive useful throughout the game. The reduction in range also adds some risk to his passive, since it forces him to clump up with his allies for long periods of time in order to gain useful effect and prevents him from remaining too far from the action.

I would cause his turrets to use mana per shot, which would require Heimer to remain close to his turrets or else have them run out of shots (15-20 seconds worth of shooting seems reasonable) thus adding another aspect of risk into his kit. With this change there would be much less difficulty with fixing the other problems by increasing the range of the turrets and letting them scale at a 1.5 ap-to-health ratio with an innitial HP of 150 (thus making them a little less defensive as a caster minion at lv 1 without AP but scaling better into late game) in replacement for the health they currently get per Heimer level. He could even have his third turret back (replacing the extra health level and moving the fire down to lv4) because using the turrets would be dangerous due to the necessity to be close and the gold given on destruction. The increased squishiness at low levels would also stop his low level dragon attempts but the changes would allow him to participate (but not solo) in an attempt at barron. See ulti for further changes, including a increased mana capacity per ulti level (allowing them to fire for 5 more seconds per level before needing refueling). The ulti would still heal the towers and give slowing shots. I would also change the firing particle to make it much more obvious what the turrett was attacking so that those unfamiliar with Heimer would understand the obvious counter to being attacked by the turrets. Everything else would remain the same.

I would cause his W to start out with 2 missiles, but adjust the damage to increase the low level base damage and raise the AP scaling (.05 should be enough). Each level of his ulti would permanently give him an extra missile (increasing to 2+3=5 at lv3) and activating his ulti would apply the same slow as is added to the turrets. The spell would also be correctly flagged as AoE rather than single target for item purposes.

I would reduce the particle speed of his E slightly but massively increase the scaling. I would also cause him to fire the missile at the beginning of the channel as opposed to the end, making him more able to hit at close range but not removing the penalty associated with the use. In addition his ulti would passively increase the maximum range and actively cause it to stun in the entire AoE, in addition to the normal effect.

I would first remove the chanel time on his ulti and increase the duration per level to 5-10-15 seconds (cooldown would need to be adjusted to compensate). I would then cause the ulti to have both a passive and an active effect on each of his other spells. Passively it would increase the mana pool on his turrets to the point where it could continue firing for 5 more seconds per level; it would increase the number of rockets by 1 per level; it would increase the maximum range of his grenade per level. Actively it would heal his turrets and add a slow to both his turrets and rockets, it would also cause the entire grenade area to stun on hit. I would also remove the passive CDR and just lower the cooldown on his abilities to compensate.

This increases the ability for Heimer to get in there and make big plays, allowing him to be much more aggressive. Every ability except his rockets would be changed to promote a much better risk/reward dynamic; passive encourages clumping and remaining in the center of the party, "Q" requires you to remain near the front of the battle to continue working, "E" will require you to be close to hit someone who is paying attention due to the slower speed but will be satisfying when it does. To a lessor degree the reduction of the low level missiles will also require better positioning in order to poke effectively. Since he will have a similar level of farm, due to his early game turret and passive nerfs, the hits should be much more on-par with other pokers and so should not be any more of a problem than theirs are.

In addition, besides the change that causes his turret to use mana and the change to the turret attack animation to make it more obvious, the rest of the changes are extremely straightforward in terms of programming and require no additional graphics work. Testing would likely take a month or so, but the rest could be put in place almost immediately.

These are just my current ideas and are likely to change. I'm still struggling with how to make his turrets long-term (ie: not temporary) but prevent them from being a drop-and-run type of high rewards/low risk ability; because as long as they are viewed as having that problem their late game scaling, squishiness, and range will almost certainly remain untouched. As long as he remains a super-farmer early game, his ranged abilities will always seem overpowered, so that is the other thing that needs to be changed.

Ideas and feedback are always welcome.


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Zowk

Senior Member

01-27-2012

Heimerdinger needs a buff


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Maruset

Senior Member

01-27-2012

I really wish Riot didn't hate Heimer so much, he's so unique and fun to play even though he's weak