AD Kog'maw?

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Carados

Senior Member

01-11-2012

There is no "opinions" when people ask "what is best."

Opinions are subjective. Good and bad are objective.

You may give people your opinions but you're wrong.

Opinions are worthless when there is a right answer.

You're the terrible person. You're misleading new players seeking help because "it works for me."

Get this: What works for better players is better then what works for bad players. There's no point in telling someone how to play "slightly below average," people want to get better.


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LexCor

Senior Member

01-11-2012

So back to the OP...
As someone said earlier in the thread, he gets the bulk of his early output from Bio-Arcane, which counts as magic damage. Diversifying that with physical damage means whatever survival solution they come up with is less effective as a result. He has a passive AS steroid too, and champions with sustained damage output (instead of 1-2-burst) benefit from the AD options.
Take Jax, or Kayle for example. They both have abilities that diversify their damage, adding magic to their combo or round of auto attacks. Don't get me wrong, they CAN benefit from AP, in the case of things like Hextech Gunblade, or Guinsoo's Rageblade, which are by no means BAD items on them, but when they're already dealing AP naturally, boosting their threat level with AD makes them harder to counter.
Hope that helps.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

01-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
There is no "opinions" when people ask "what is best."
Unless you have all the facts and circumstances regarding every single game (impossible), you can't possibly know what is "best".

Quote:
Opinions are subjective. Good and bad are objective.
Then it's a good thing that Warrrrax has data to back up his claim. You, however, do not. All you have is "all the pros do it". Well, news flash, bro. None of the pros have the luxury to play Kog any way BUT AD since their team comps demand a ranged AD carry.

You are not pro, neither am I, neither is Warrrrax. As such, we must use simple mathematics, theorycrafting, and good ole common sense. We don't get the luxury of having pro supports, AP carries, junglers and bruisers on our teams in order to build Kog'Maw AD and expect to be successful.

Numerically speaking, the AS build is supremely more powerful (in terms of DPS AND defense) than any other conceivable build for the same gold values. There is no possible way to refute this unless you want to post your own fancy calculations, which I haven't seen you do....EVER.

Quote:
You may give people your opinions but you're wrong.

Opinions are worthless when there is a right answer.
This is just your opinion...who is to say that your opinion is any better than anyone else'? Unfortunately, you never give any data to validate your own opinion, and even worse, you won't ever give reasons why other people's opinions are simply that...opinions.

You just spout a bunch of hyperbolic nonsense that's supposed to be witty, but somehow fails miserably....ever wonder why?

Quote:
You're the terrible person. You're misleading new players seeking help because "it works for me."
How many times must I do this with you before you get the hint? I mean, geez...you're rude, ignorant, misinformed, and just plain trollin.

Gah, I wish you could report someone on the forums...and actually see results...

Quote:
Get this: What works for better players is better then what works for bad players. There's no point in telling someone how to play "slightly below average," people want to get better.
Are you really this dense?

Do you not READ the top tier pro's who have leveled multiple accounts into high ELO? They ALL say that you have to carry yourself into high ELO, and how you play (and how your allies play) changes DRASTICALLY as you rise through the ranks.

This means that many tactics are viable in the overwhelming majority of player games that would never work in the pro scene because of the way they build their teams.

Conversely, multiple tactics and strategies employed by pro players simply CANNOT work with us lower level players due to our inability to obtain certain advantages. Shoot, even if we DO gain the advantage, we can't capitalize since we typically don't have voice comm with teammates and we almost NEVER get proper team comps.

TL;DR - Your failed attempts at sarcasm and wit are truly annoying. To make matters worse, you act as if your methods are the ONLY methods for playing this game. And to top it all off, you're just flat out WRONG about stuff, but refuse to show why you have these erroneous beliefs.

Grow a pair and man up.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexCor View Post
So back to the OP...
As someone said earlier in the thread, he gets the bulk of his early output from Bio-Arcane, which counts as magic damage. Diversifying that with physical damage means whatever survival solution they come up with is less effective as a result. He has a passive AS steroid too, and champions with sustained damage output (instead of 1-2-burst) benefit from the AD options.
Take Jax, or Kayle for example. They both have abilities that diversify their damage, adding magic to their combo or round of auto attacks. Don't get me wrong, they CAN benefit from AP, in the case of things like Hextech Gunblade, or Guinsoo's Rageblade, which are by no means BAD items on them, but when they're already dealing AP naturally, boosting their threat level with AD makes them harder to counter.
Hope that helps.
It really doesn't matter whether he has a mixture of physical and magical damage. Against targets with no mitigation and tons of mitigation (for either/or), the most powerful damaging build is an AS build.

However, building him this way is only viable if your team has plenty of physical damage already. Otherwise, you want to either build him AD or play a more dedicated AD champ. Dedicated AD champs are WAY better than Kog when it comes to physical damage since they usually have escapes, more reliable CC, and/or scaling abilities.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

01-12-2012

Whether you go AD or onHit, you still are mixing your damage types.... you are simply determining where the majority of your damage comes from.

OnHit kog still has 100 AD, plus 18/20 when they get a Phage/Mallet, plus 30 from a Bloodrazor once they get it. So thats 150 damage per hit worth of physical.
They will likely have 350ish onhit magical.

AD is similar except they have high physical damage, supplimented by crits. And their magical damage will be 150ish.


In general it is easier to mitigate physical damage since armor is more readily available and in more useful forms (there IS no vs magic version of frozen heart or thornmail...not even close). Therefore magical damage is usually preferred....as long as your entire time isn't already magical.


AD Kog DOES have an advantage very early game...I will admit this. With a Dorans and AD masteries/runes, he can start with 70 AD and good armor pen.
When he pops level 1 Barrage, he will do 70 physical and 2% of 500ish = 10ish magical.

Clearly its better to have armor pen on 70 AD, vs magical pen on 10ish dmg. Thus, Barrage is basically just a range-booster early on, and the AD Kog harasses better and last-hits better.

However, by level 9 vs 1200 health foes, your barrage is adding 72ish magical onhit damage which is pretty significant.
And as spreadsheet analysis shows... onHit DPS really runs away over AD Kog.

Without the numbers one can hopefully see that at level 10 say, a kog with a Sword of Divine adds 25 onhit damage, 60% AS, and even gets 20 armor pen clickey.... vs a kog that only has a BF Sword adding 45 (55 dorans) damage. Clearly the 60% AS will deal more DPS...especially when you have an onhit 70ish damage booster and 70ish natural AD.


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LexCor

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
It really doesn't matter whether he has a mixture of physical and magical damage. Against targets with no mitigation and tons of mitigation (for either/or), the most powerful damaging build is an AS build.

However, building him this way is only viable if your team has plenty of physical damage already. Otherwise, you want to either build him AD or play a more dedicated AD champ. Dedicated AD champs are WAY better than Kog when it comes to physical damage since they usually have escapes, more reliable CC, and/or scaling abilities.
First, and I'm spitballing here, but if we're going by the "meta" (which I bloody well hate, but it's there), our damage type typically follow as physical (Tanky DPS top), magical (AP Mage middle), magical (Support bottom, although this usually isn't significant) and either physical or blended (Junglers such as Skarner, Udyr, Rammus or Shyvana split their damage, whereas Lee Sin or Jarvan IV are primarily physical).

Of couse, team composition will determine the exactness of this, but we're left with 2 guaranteed sources of magic damage, one physical and jungler up for grabs (blended). Picking an "AD Carry" that can diversify your damage that much more can force players to pick a resistance, and your output doesn't suffer as much either way.

Regardless, I guess the point is that players need to learn to adapt. A one-mode-build doesn't help players account for variables, which everyone needs to. I think the other builds can certainly be valid... Hell, AP Kog'maw can be a terror in the right hands. That's the love of the game: choice.

Secondly, tip of the had for putting the loudmouth in his place.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexCor View Post
First, and I'm spitballing here, but if we're going by the "meta" (which I bloody well hate, but it's there), our damage type typically follow as physical (Tanky DPS top), magical (AP Mage middle), magical (Support bottom, although this usually isn't significant) and either physical or blended (Junglers such as Skarner, Udyr, Rammus or Shyvana split their damage, whereas Lee Sin or Jarvan IV are primarily physical).
I agree that putting Kog'Maw on a "meta" team is tough unless he builds AD. I also agree that he is a great champ to truly get "hybrid" damage output. However, the issue with this concept is that you can deal roughly 20-40% more damage per second with an AS on-hit build than an AD build, while also obtaining defensive stats.

Your point is still valid, however. Therefore, I propose players DON'T choose Kog as their AD champion. There are champs out there who fill that role MUCH better, such as Cait and Graves who both have escapes and AD scaling on their abilities. Shoot, even Trist is better as AD than Kog (imo).

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Of couse, team composition will determine the exactness of this, but we're left with 2 guaranteed sources of magic damage, one physical and jungler up for grabs (blended). Picking an "AD Carry" that can diversify your damage that much more can force players to pick a resistance, and your output doesn't suffer as much either way.
Well, the issue with AD is that it's much easier to counter. Firstly, all champs get passive armor gains to equal roughly 3x whatever their base MR is. So...with zero items on the target, your AD build is going to be much less effective simply because targets get a passive armor increase.

That, and the fact that armor is so much cheaper than MR.

Anyway, regardless of which route you take, both builds will deal quite a bit of "hybrid" damage. AS build will still deal approximately 150 physical per hit (non-crit) while also dealing approximately 270 magical per hit.

AD builds will usually just flip those two numbers (for the same gold cost), and you are looking at about 150 magical and 270 physical (rough estimates, of course). However, your AS will be much lower on an AD build, so your DPS output will be lower. Combine that with the fact that Armor is easier to obtain than MR, and you have an even more compelling case to go AS.

Quote:
Regardless, I guess the point is that players need to learn to adapt. A one-mode-build doesn't help players account for variables, which everyone needs to. I think the other builds can certainly be valid... Hell, AP Kog'maw can be a terror in the right hands. That's the love of the game: choice.
Yeah, the issue is not which build is most optimal, it's more about what does your team need. I have had games where my solo top and my jungler are both AD carries in their own way, and the solo mid isn't an extreme AP carry. Those are the kind of games I build Kog AS on-hit. Otherwise, I play a different AD carry and build them with AD. Cait, Graves and Vayne are all better AD choices than Kog'Maw since they have massive damage potential from AD scaling abilities.

Quote:
Secondly, tip of the had for putting the loudmouth in his place.
I wouldn't mind him so much if he would just be nice about stuff, or back up his absurd comments with facts. Unfortunately, he never does that....


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