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Make Dominion early game worth something

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Argodis

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Of course Dominion criticism gets downvoted.

OP is right about early game not being meaningful and too much reliance on team work. The mode being too team oriented is one of the reasons why Dominion is so unpopular right now. You as a player don't have as big of an impact compared to SR.

In SR it's rare that you don't see games where you can say, "This guy carried the game. If it wasn't for him making x plays, they would have lost." Even sports like football, soccer, basketball, etc. frequently have moments like these. That doesn't make them any less of a team game.

You rarely see this in Dominion unless you're playing as a Ryze, Yorick, Poppy, or something.

So yea, Dominion at the moment is a bit too team oriented.

Early game is also irrelevant as you can't shutdown some champs. Kassadin is pretty weak early but it doesn't matter because by the 15mins mark he'll be removing over 50% of a squishy's HP with just Q+E and there is nothing you can do to prevent that despite having a lead early on. If you manage to shut down Kassadin during the first 20mins of laning in SR, he isn't going to be much of a factor the rest of the game.

When you're doing well on SR, you can continue to farm, grab buffs, dragon, and possibly even baron all the while shutting down the enemy team. What is your reward for doing well early on in Dominion? Congrats, you and allies gained 67 gold for capping Windmill together and barely any gold from kills. You can't stop the enemy from gaining gold nor can you stop them from gaining exp. Because of this, if your enemy has a better mid game comp than you, they WILL eventually make a come back. I'm not saying they're going to win the game but a comeback shouldn't be possible when your team is still playing well. That 600-800 gold advantage from early game is meaningless. Your enemies are also rewarded by respawning faster for losing. The faster respawning may not seem like much but it eventually adds up.

Just the overall lack of snowballing really hurts Dominion and many of the enemy comebacks don't feel like they earned them.


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Ascleph

Senior Member

01-07-2012

OP gets downvoted because he is insanely wrong as shown in the previous page.


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Argodis

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Ascleph:
OP gets downvoted because he is insanely wrong as shown in the previous page.


Except he isn't. His suggestion may not be the best one but that doesn't make him "insanely wrong." There is some truth behind what he said.

But I forgot, Dominion is perfect. That's why it's so popular right now. My bad.


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RealWolf M

Senior Member

01-07-2012

his suggestion is terrible, and you are wrong.

Teamwork being important is GOOD.

I don't see how being able to comeback is a bad thing. Snowballing is perhaps the WORST thing about SR, where one mistake can cause a game loss.

How many games of football do you see where one team scores, and then the other team is at a disadvantage, and it is harder for them to get their next score?

The idea of snowballing is still in Dominion, if its not you don't understand gold/exp bonus's. The difference is these advantages are smaller, and it requires teamwork to capatilise on it.

In most of my games I could name a MVP, quite easily. And its not always the person with the most points. However having two solid players makes it much easier to win, three even better, when you have a good team composition, and god teamwork, thats when 5caps occur, and that early game advantage they get HELPS because they have a gold and exp advantage, and it gets much harder for the enemy team to catch up.

Saying that the gold advantage is unimportant is just bad, and saying that because of a small respawn advantage the other team can catch up shows that you don't understand how things work.

Dominion is far from perfect, there are plenty of flaws currently, BUT lack of snowballing is not a flaw. Requiring teamwork is not a flaw. Not using retardedly bad team compositions is not a flaw.


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Ascleph

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Argodis:
Except he isn't. His suggestion may not be the best one but that doesn't make him "insanely wrong."

Yep, he is. Dont like teamwork? Then dont play team based games.


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Doom Lich

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Argodis:
But I forgot, Dominion is perfect. That's why it's so popular right now. My bad.


Dominion is unpopular because it came second, and people are bad at accepting change. While typically people will eventually give in to the change, with Dominion they have the option of totally ignoring it. So noone has to get over their SR fettish.

If Dominion was the initial game mode, the SR would be in the exact same position, smartass.


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RealWolf M

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Just thinking of what Doom Lich said, I remember that back when I played Dota, EVERY patch people complained saying "man, this champ didn't need a nerf, this new thing is ****, this is bad, these patches are ruining the game"


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Argodis

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
RealWolf M:
his suggestion is terrible, and you are wrong.

Teamwork being important is GOOD.

Where did I say team work being important was a bad thing? Too much of anything is a bad and this especially true of team work in a video game.

What, do you think all those complaints that many SR players have about not feeling important in Dominion are just made up? Part of that is simply being ignorant of Dominion gameplay strategies and the other half being Dominion currently putting too much emphasis on team work. Good gameplay design when making a team oriented game means not only making the playing field equal but also making each player feel unique enough that they can take the game into their own hands and be game changing.

Jungler, bruiser top, AP mid, support, AD carry, all of them feel important. All of them feel like they have a great affect on the outcome of the game on SR. Thats great design.

You Dominions players may say, I already feel like I'm important. Well, newsflash, you are a minority. Most LoL players do not feel this way when they play Dominion.

Dota players dislike that it's harder to carry in LoL but that doesn't make Dota any less of a team game. Many SR players feel the same about Dominion and the fact that its nearly impossible to win a 4v5 in Dominion in comparison exemplifies this. For the people that are incapable of intelligent reasoning, no I'm not saying it should be possible to win 4v5s. Simply, individual players should feel important.

Quote:
RealWolf M:
I don't see how being able to comeback is a bad thing. Snowballing is perhaps the WORST thing about SR, where one mistake can cause a game loss.


Snowballing is a key element of all mobas. It represents progression. It allows you to press your advantage but more importantly, it makes the game fun.

Fun is not acing the enemy team at Windmill(Ace as in killing their 4 top), running to cap their intermediate point and dying because they respawned within 8 seconds. Happens all the time early game. You'll probably argue, "They should have just checked the enemy's respawn timers and backed." However, that isn't giving you an advantage for picking an early game oriented comp or doing well early, that's simply postponing the storm.

And ace early game in SR not only means more meaningful gold and experience than Dominion, but it also means a free tower and/or dragon.

The only good thing you could do in Dominion is gank bot which they'll just take back in a few seconds(Assuming the gank is even successful) provided they weren't completely outpicked. It's only really beneficial if the quest happens to be down there.

Good game modes have counters to snowballing and limit the amount so it's not unfun for the losing team and so that comebacks are possible. For SR, its map control and those map objectives. It's entirely possible to be losing but still have a bit of map control. Baron allows for comebacks because even for the winning team it is a risk.

An inhibitor down benefits both teams. For the winning team, its constant pressure on the losing team allowing them to easier do other things like baron, buff control etc. For the losing team, it allows you to safely farm in your base and turtle up. This could lead to a comeback in many ways as it directly helps the winning team but implicitly helps the losing team as well. This is good design.

It's not just, since you're winning you're going to respawn longer and the losing team is going to respawn faster like Dominion.

And lol at one mistake can cause a game loss. If that were true, the team that gains first blood would win every game which is entirely untrue. Everyone would be in Elo Hell because it would impossible to carry feeders. It's funny because most Dominion players play SR at a skill level where mistakes are so frequent that its impossible to tell who is going to win the game despite whatever advantage that is currently present.

Snowballing is a part of SR and so are comebacks, the difference is there is actually a balance between the two. Completing minimizing snowballing is not a solution.


Quote:
RealWolf M:
How many games of football do you see where one team scores, and then the other team is at a disadvantage, and it is harder for them to get their next score?
My comparison to football was about the game being too team oriented. It had nothing to do with snowballing.

They're totally different when it comes to gameplay design.

Quote:
RealWolf M:
The idea of snowballing is still in Dominion, if its not you don't understand gold/exp bonus's. The difference is these advantages are smaller, and it requires teamwork to capatilise on it.
There is nothing to capitalize on with 400-600 gold advantage. That means nothing at all and much of that is only possible if you got lucky and got all the kills. A significant gold advantage in SR is about 5k gold(Global gold advantage).

Last time I checked, champions are the same on Dominion and items in Dominion are the same price. Most meaningful items cost 3k+ gold. Congrats, after your 5-6 kills, you have a 600 gold advantage. I'm sure being able to get that null magic mantle sooner is totally going stop Kassadin from destroying you and your team. lol

The only reason why I could see snowballing being bad on Dominion is because right now there is currently nothing there to counteract it unlike SR.

Being 50% into level 16 while your enemy is only 10% into 16 isn't going to help you win the next engagement.

I frequently ran EXP runes and masteries to see how well I could snowball and it simply doesn't happen. In most situations, it only gave me a 1 level advantage. If I was lucky, I gained a 2 level advantage over the enemy team. If matchmaking failed, I could become 3 levels higher than my opponents. This was my experience from using them top lane.

I've seen bot players get 2 levels ahead of their opponent but you would have to seriously be dominating them for that to happen.

So no, snowballing is practically non-existent on Dominion.

Quote:
RealWolf M:
In most of my games I could name a MVP, quite easily. And its not always the person with the most points. However having two solid players makes it much easier to win, three even better, when you have a good team composition, and god teamwork, thats when 5caps occur, and that early game advantage they get HELPS because they have a gold and exp advantage, and it gets much harder for the enemy team to catch up.
Unless the enemy team was completely outpicked, or an OP champ was picked it's not possible.

1 player can not be everywhere. It doesn't matter if you score a quadra kill top if your bot cannot keep things there under control.

I take that back... Some champs do have presence over the whole map or do so well that they demand the attention of the whole enemy team but most champs do not.

Whenever I "carry" a game, I always know that it wouldn't have been possible if my bot didn't hold while I dominated top or vice versa.

This is why OP was right when he said requiring 100% teamwork to win is bad. On a tourney level, sure this is fine. For solo queue? Nah, it isn't fine at all. The game needs to allow for you to compensate for that feeder, the guy having an off day, etc. This is where snowballing comes in. A team is only as strong as its weakest link and this is a little too true for Dominion. I'm sure this is one of the reasons why SR is not only balanced around tourney level play, but solo queue as well.

If a 5 cap occurs, matchmaking failed. That's how I see it.

I agree. Having 2 solid players significantly increases your chances of winning. More so in Dominon than in SR.
Quote:
RealWolf M:
Saying that the gold advantage is unimportant is just bad, and saying that because of a small respawn advantage the other team can catch up shows that you don't understand how things work.

Dominion is far from perfect, there are plenty of flaws currently, BUT lack of snowballing is not a flaw. Requiring teamwork is not a flaw. Not using retardedly bad team compositions is not a flaw.


The gold advantage is unimportant because it's so minuscule that it barely matters in the grand scheme of things. There is no reason to pick champs that will give you that advantage when there are better champs throughout the game. I'll admit, IF your champs are of relatively close strength throughout the game then yes, it does matter. However, champ power level is rarely that close. There is no shutting down of champs like Kassadin on Dominion. He's going to get levels and gold and some champs just make better use of gold than others.

Just for an example, there is no reason to pick a Caitlyn over Vayne. The advantages that Caitlyn have early game are not good enough that such a small gold/exp advantage would justify picking her over Vayne as Vayne would not only catch up to Caitlyn, but eventually surpass her in terms of usefulness.

No, I'm not saying Caitlyn is a bad pick.

Quote:
Doom Lich:
Dominion is unpopular because it came second, and people are bad at accepting change. While typically people will eventually give in to the change, with Dominion they have the option of totally ignoring it. So noone has to get over their SR fettish.

If Dominion was the initial game mode, the SR would be in the exact same position, smartass.

If I remember correctly, people tried to like Dominion. People were playing the beta none stop and begging for Riot to enable the beta. Then after the hype died down, the flaws became more apparent and people stopped playing. First impressions are everything and Domnion did not leave a good impression on many players.

Sure, one of the reasons why Dominion is unpopular can be attributed to coming second but there are many more reasons.


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RealWolf M

Senior Member

01-08-2012

You are a troll.

Plenty of people still play Dom, you seem to think you are in a majority, but it is a majority of idiots (if it even is one).

Lets see, countering your points quickly and simply

You say teamwork is not a bad thing, but requiring teamwork is. You can't say "Having teamwork is bad, but you should be able to win a game regardless of your team". Its a pretty simple concept, if you can win a 4v5, you would have won the 5v5. So matchmaking has failed (taking your quote). If you can win a 4v5, it usually means that the other team is bad. Show me any high tier game where someone wins a 4v5? No? It doesn't happen does it. Even a champion who 'fed' can still deal damage/disable and help. It is the same with dominion. You can carry a bad player, they just have to work with you, something as simple as not going in first can change the entire thing.

You say snowballing is a key element, I say it isn't. I say the most important element is the feeling of having potential to stay in the fight. Why would I want to play SR when a game is over in 5 minutes, yet continues for another 40? With Dominion, even down at 400-40 I will still keep trying, because if we work together properly, and efficiently, we can win. Thats a far better feeling. You can't win when behind in SR after a certain point without

Wait for it

TEAMWORK, far in excess of what is required in Dominion aswell.

Snowballing is a stupid mechanic. Sports teams don't have snowballing. Even high tier RTS games like Sc2 have snowballing controlled, so that its not that big. You say your comparison with football was about team orientated? Mine is about snowballing?

For some reason am I not allowed to use the exact same example as you to prove how bad your points are?

You say a 400-600 gold advantage is small? it is. Is it neglegible? Ask anyone if they would like a free chainvest or negatron cloak in a fight. If they say no they are an idiot. If they say yes, well thats because EVERYTHING HELPS. How many fights do people survive with very low health? Quite a few. Maybe if their enemy was tankier they wouldn't.

You say that you ran XP runes, maybe its more that you didn't capatilise on the xp you get in the game. I notice in most of my games there is a 1-3 level difference at the end of the game, and with gold differences there is often a champion with up to 5k more gold than the others in the team. That is fairly significant. I have seen many games end with me 2 levels, and my entire team in total about 5-10 levels above the enemy team. Thats huge. Thats a big difference.

You say that when you carry a game it wouldn't have been possible without bot lane holding? I say it would be impossible to carry a game in SR without top lane holding. If top lane let them just push down all the towers, well how are you going to carry now? That gold advantage from playing well is gone because of those towers. Its the same ****.

Not to mention if your bot isn't holding, its not purely your bottom lanes fault. Its your teams fault for not giving them the backup with ganks and pressure.

You say the gold advantage is not important when there are better champs. You then go on to say 'why pick cait over vayne'. Hmm, vayne is easier to pop because her escape is a smaller distance, she has only a knockback not 3 stuns, she has to ENGAGE from a closer range (if vayne is fighting you you can fight back), so bruisers can't keep them off you. Caitlyn has a ridiculous range, she can sit back and melt you without having to get in range of those dangerous gap closers, and with good disruption between her and the target no one can touch her.


I have never felt Dominion is unpopular, I find its plenty popular, I think its better than SR in more ways than its worse, but you seem to just be an idiot who goes "Herp derp, SR better, it removes teamwork and allows one person to dominate the entire game"


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WaterD103

Recruiter

01-09-2012

Many games are decided earlygame nonenthless. Being Feed exist. And sometimes an early game dominance seals the game. Sometimes I've seen games lost on the moment a team loses windmill and then inmediatly loses top, and they have strong defenders and before you notice the team is in a 250 point lead that is not easy to comeback.
Early game is worth quite a bit, I don't see a problem, is not that you can just sit back until lategame and you are ok. Is worth to play better than the opponent team early game? Sure. Thats all the game needs.


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