[A Question] To all the Veigars..

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Vukasa

Senior Member

10-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordraer View Post
Lots of you seem to think that Veigar needs a Rod of Ages because that extra health is going to be a huge difference-maker. I'm not here to tell you that the Rod of Ages is the devil, but I'll say that I strongly disagree that "it is a mistake to not have it." As a Veigar, you should never put yourself in a position to be hit for large amounts of damage, and if you are in a position to do so, the extra 725 health is going to save you for roughly 1 second longer. I'd much rather play smarter, not put myself into a vulnerable position, and have more AP and mana regen.
T-Up


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Rokudan

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The Council

10-13-2009

Not gonna bother quoting cause it just adds another wall of text, but Mordraer:

First off, I've refrained from using personal experiences as references so sorry for using them now.


725 Health is way more beneficial than 1 second. You are treating it like it is 100. 725 Health is not to be underestimated in any way shape or form. It allows you to stay in a lane and farm longer, to go continue and make a gank, to overall make a bigger impact. I'm not talking about the getting focused that you keep addressing. I'm saying erroneous damage that you can't prevent provided you're actively fighting in a team fight. There are MULTIPLE times in a single game where I will be skirting around a fight at 400 hp still throwing my spells out. Those few seconds of lasting longer allow an exhaust, an ally, event horizon to cooldown, etc.

Archangels: I like the item too, obviously. However, the benefit does not weigh that heavy early game. I like it being a huge chunk when I finally get it. For you, I'd suggest getting Zhonya's before Archangel's. Since you're saying you want maximum damage, this is more optimal. The tear is plenty mana for the entire game, and the benefit of the mana plus the benefit of the mana for zhonya will be there when you get archangel's. The Zhonya is much better to get earlier, it's benefit is coupled with your passive and with Brilliance Elixirs. Which leads me to...

Why don't you get brilliance Elixirs?! They're so useful. They practically pay for themselves while you gank, they max out your -cooldown with a golem buff, and they're a sizeable amount of AP for cheap.

Soulstealer, ugh. I have exhausted the hell out of this argument. I really just let people that like it get it, to me the benefits just aren't there. Sure it is a pure AP item. Sure it's the most efficient way to get some AP. However, it really doesn't have any synergy. It adds AP, that's pretty much it. I know a lot of people like it and think it's "made for Veigar". However, I believe it is not that good. It just doesn't synergize. If I was able to get it without delaying my other item choices I definitely would, however I can't seem to find reason to delay either mana, survivability, or the huge power of zhonya.

I don't see how my build isn't enough AP. I never, ever, ever have a problem killing anyone. Whether it be a Tryndamere, Singed, whatever. I can combo them easily until they get a banshee's veil. Even then its only another baleful usually to finish them. I do not play against scrubs, I play against a lot of people that are considered "top tier". I melt them. A majority of the higher-tier players have played against my Veigar and fear him. The health of RoA is good for baiting, the mana of tear is great for farming, and my AP never lacks. Maybe I'm being conceited, but I am fully confident that the way I play Veigar is the most optimal way to play him [In the current build and in the types of games I play].

However, your level of play, types of challenges, enemies and allies vary greatly from mine. Likewise, play what makes you have fun and what you find to do well. There are many different meta-games going on within LoL right now, I understand this. All I attempt to do is make any and every Veigar player think and try new things, try and make the champion better and better recognized. I've played him since before his few buffs and was very sad at his representation. He is an amazing champion that is awesome to play and has a decent learning curve. As long as you're owning with him, have tried the proposed strats and still prefer your own, then I have no problem with it!


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Asymptote

Associate Engineer

10-13-2009

I just wanted to add to my earlier comment about HP.
My main reason for wanting the additional HP is not really to survive when I'm being targeted but more to discourage being targetted. My HP bar will just LOOK more dense and thus not as inviting to become targetted in the first place. I know when I'm hunting for kills, not only do I look for ones that have low health but also the ones whose health bars are not as dense.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading and learning about the various builds for Veigar on this thread. I don't really believe there is a "correct" way to build him since everyone has drastically different play styles. Honestly, the glass cannon method sounds pretty brutal and wish I could pull that off.


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Mordraer

Member

10-13-2009

It seems you and I have very different playstyles Roku. I can understand not wanting soulstealer if your sole focus isn't AP, as it is with me. As I said before, I am a purist. I want 100% maximization in one area, and I have played that way in pretty much every game I've ever played (outside of LoL I mean). It's the same reason I only play Veigar, I just really like to do one thing and do it well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roku View Post
Why don't you get brilliance Elixirs?! They're so useful. They practically pay for themselves while you gank, they max out your -cooldown with a golem buff, and they're a sizeable amount of AP for cheap.
They are pretty useful, and honestly I'm on the fence about elixirs. I have used them and they're great when they're on, but I'd rather use the money for another item. As I said, I go all-out AP, so I don't need them during the mid-game to kill people. At that point if I stun someone they're dead pretty much. And by the time it's late game I don't have the space. But as I said, I'm on the fence. Some games I buy one if they have an especially beefy tank or some annoying guy with 100 MR at level 16 or something.

I've also heard of guys using Exhaust with Veigar. I can't seem to bring myself to use it, though in theory I think it would be highly effective. I just don't like the idea of getting close enough to an enemy to use it.

Your idea about going Zhonya's before I finish Archangel's is something I've thought about doing many times. The underlying reason I haven't is basically because Zhonya's is expensive, and the gap between Soulstealer and Zhonya is a long one. I opt for Archangel's because it kind of bridges that gap and keeps my effectiveness up, whereas with Zhonya's there would be a bit of a lull and then I would be a bit ahead. I'd rather the consistency.

How often do you (any of you, not just Roku) use magic penetration runes? And does anyone know the range on the Abyssal Scepter? I assume that if I am stunning them at max range that the debuff of the scepter is coming into play, but I have no way of knowing afaik.

Also, Roku, why do you wait so long to get higher levels of Dark Matter? I have 4 levels of it by 8 so that I can start 1-shotting ranged groups to farm tons of gold. What is your reasoning for maxing Baleful so quickly? Simply for the cooldown?

Anyway, good thread so far, I wish more hardcore Veigar players would contribute, but as Roku pointed out, I don't think there are many out there.


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Cyco

Junior Member

10-13-2009

In my honest opinion, and I've played with quite a few people that main Veigar, and I have to say Mordraer is by far the best I've seen.

Even on teams with other Veigars their score does not come CLOSE to Mord's. I know, I know... Kill score doesn't mean anything... it does when we are pushing a tower and he Dark Matter smashes a team and 2 or 3 of them drop to nothing or dead for us to finish the push.

Perhaps before you people just look at it and criticize, see him play.. OR try the build yourself and see if it works for you. Different builds and play styles work better for some people than others. That build definitely works for him. Might not work quite as well for you, based on your skill and play style, but it sure as hell works for him.


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123birds

Senior Member

10-13-2009

I personaly find that rod of ages is not a good item. It just takes too much time to build, and then takes 15 minutes to get its full value. For its same price and time i could get a zhonya and more. Theirs my 50 cents on rod of ages, now how i play him. I start out with Melki Pendants (the mana regen thing), up it to a philosiphers stone around level 4, then go for sorcerers boots, because without boots veigar is way too slow. After that i go Senjai's. Next i do the abyssal staff. Now i know i could be getting the staff earlier, but by this time (like 30 minutes) people are starting to stack resistance, this nulifies some of it, and if they didnt get it puts it in the negative. Lastly i get zhonyaz and by this time i have around 650 AP. If the game lasts any longer, i either get archangels if im not getting targeted that much, or guardian angel for those times when u get 2-4 ults thrown at you (yes, it is quite painful).


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Rokudan

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The Council

10-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordraer View Post
I've also heard of guys using Exhaust with Veigar. I can't seem to bring myself to use it, though in theory I think it would be highly effective. I just don't like the idea of getting close enough to an enemy to use it.

Your idea about going Zhonya's before I finish Archangel's is something I've thought about doing many times. The underlying reason I haven't is basically because Zhonya's is expensive, and the gap between Soulstealer and Zhonya is a long one. I opt for Archangel's because it kind of bridges that gap and keeps my effectiveness up, whereas with Zhonya's there would be a bit of a lull and then I would be a bit ahead. I'd rather the consistency.

How often do you (any of you, not just Roku) use magic penetration runes? And does anyone know the range on the Abyssal Scepter? I assume that if I am stunning them at max range that the debuff of the scepter is coming into play, but I have no way of knowing afaik.

Also, Roku, why do you wait so long to get higher levels of Dark Matter? I have 4 levels of it by 8 so that I can start 1-shotting ranged groups to farm tons of gold. What is your reasoning for maxing Baleful so quickly? Simply for the cooldown?
I've tread on your feet too much on the other things so now I'll move to these new topics

First off, Exhaust. Exhaust is so gloriously amazing that it isn't even funny. I honestly cannot play Veigar without it. Since my playstyle is HIGHLY revolved around mindgames, exhaust is perfect. Aside from the mindgame capabilities of the blind (Lol twitch ganked me, oh he's blind, oh he's dead.) The talent is amazing. Magic pen on a decent cd with an attached slow is pretty win. I use it all the time for mind games and for high-magic resist targets (Horizon, move in exhaust, matter, baleful, primordial if needed).

You can still pretty much have the consistency with Zhonya. Get the two wands first then the next time you go back to base grab a brilliance elixir. It'll cover the downtime of the other 1975 gold and you'll overall have more damage for longer.

I had quite a few conversations on IRC about magic pen actually. I think I have them included in my guide, but they're pretty similar. Damage wise, straight AP seems to be better on targets that have > 100 magic resist, and magic pen is better before then. This is assuming the Magic pen offensive talent IIRC. Personally, since magic pen doesn't work on creeps and most teams I go against tend to go 5 @!#$ing banshee veils, I go straight AP. And the Abyssal Aura is huge. You can't cast on someone and not have it hit. I just find the magic resist a wasted stat at times and I am largely about min-maxing items and characters as a whole.

I've thought about and fought this argument often as well, in both IRC and forums. I think my most articulated reasoning is near the bottom of this page:

http://beta.leagueoflegends.com/boar...t=14906&page=3

And to everyone that keeps defending Mord: I understand that he knows how to play Veigar and plays him often and well at whatever tier he plays at. I never once said that he was a bad player or that he is a noob or anything, just like I hope he doesn't assume that of me.


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Mordraer

Member

10-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roku View Post
First off, Exhaust. Exhaust is so gloriously amazing that it isn't even funny. I honestly cannot play Veigar without it. Since my playstyle is HIGHLY revolved around mindgames, exhaust is perfect. Aside from the mindgame capabilities of the blind (Lol twitch ganked me, oh he's blind, oh he's dead.) The talent is amazing. Magic pen on a decent cd with an attached slow is pretty win. I use it all the time for mind games and for high-magic resist targets (Horizon, move in exhaust, matter, baleful, primordial if needed).
How can you have the time to hit an Exhaust in between your Event Horizon and your Dark Matter? Are you assuming this is in a somewhat "mushed together" teamfight where you aren't plopping your stun at close to max range? As I recall the radius for exhaust was pretty small. I completely agree that it is ownage, but I'm afraid it would put me in a pretty tough spot being that much closer to the mean guys with red hp bars. I am curious though, maybe I'll give it a shot. I just can't imagine hitting my stun at near max range, waltzing up to pop an exhaust, and not being murdered or miss the timing on my Dark Matter.


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Rokudan

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The Council

10-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordraer View Post
How can you have the time to hit an Exhaust in between your Event Horizon and your Dark Matter? Are you assuming this is in a somewhat "mushed together" teamfight where you aren't plopping your stun at close to max range? As I recall the radius for exhaust was pretty small. I completely agree that it is ownage, but I'm afraid it would put me in a pretty tough spot being that much closer to the mean guys with red hp bars. I am curious though, maybe I'll give it a shot. I just can't imagine hitting my stun at near max range, waltzing up to pop an exhaust, and not being murdered or miss the timing on my Dark Matter.
Talking more in a 1v2 or less situation. If you're in a team fight, you'd want to throw it on the enemy carry and back out. In any other situation, it only fails if they have flash. The slow on exhaust makes it impossible for them to get out in any direction.


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Shirokuma

The Council

10-18-2009

It kinda scares me that some people think it's not a mistake to skip a Rod of Ages. Whenever I play Veigar, if the game lasts long enough, I always end up with two...