[A Question] To all the Veigars..

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ColbyCheeZe

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Senior Member

10-12-2009

Based on my experience playing with Mord, his strategy definitely isn't a bad one. I've never seen a Veigar play anywhere near as well as he does. I could see the viability of having a rod of ages, but on the flip side he tends to use his stun well enough to keep himself out of danger.


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Rokudan

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The Council

10-13-2009

Well, sorry for my wording, guess it came off more harsh than what I meant. The ignorance wasn't in your build, it was in your blaming others. Never assume that you're doing the most that you can and that your teammates completely brought you down, because then you can't get better.

I completely understand and encourage different builds; versatility makes the game. Just letting you know, that if you wanted to optimize your play there are better ways. And yes, a rod of ages does give you overall damage output. By this I mean that if you have more hp, the inevitable stray damage that you can't avoid doesn't shut you out of the fight. A rod of ages is an amazing item for keeping you in the fights longer both with hp and mana.


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Guess

Senior Member

10-13-2009

In a serious game, survival items are a must. For the average matchmaking game (with players from ALL skill ranges...) you can easily run with no hp items on veigar and dominate. However, you should not be basing your build around event horizon imo. As a veigar player, I'm always in the front and simply rely on juking to avoid the heat of combat.


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Cyatomorrow

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Senior Member

10-13-2009

I don't feel an extra 500 health or so is going to save Veigar. If you're in range of punishment from the other team's nukes/carries, you're going to die maybe one second later than you would.

In my opinion, you should focus on burst damage. The sooner you can put down an enemy hero, the less damage that hero is going to do to your team, and the more of an asset you'll be to the team.

If you're stacking health over AP, you're doing more damage overall, but you're also allowing the enemy team to do more damage overall, because you're putting them down slower.


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Rokudan

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The Council

10-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyatomorrow View Post
I don't feel an extra 500 health or so is going to save Veigar. If you're in range of punishment from the other team's nukes/carries, you're going to die maybe one second later than you would.

In my opinion, you should focus on burst damage. The sooner you can put down an enemy hero, the less damage that hero is going to do to your team, and the more of an asset you'll be to the team.

If you're stacking health over AP, you're doing more damage overall, but you're also allowing the enemy team to do more damage overall, because you're putting them down slower.
725 Health*

And I really don't see how you're doing less damage. Maybe when I have 600 AP at the 30 mins mark, you have 800? I don't see how it's that big of a difference even in a pure damage standpoint. Rod of Ages is an amazing item. And actually, letting the enemy team do more damage overall isn't necessarily true. Most of the time I have plenty of overkill in my combos, and that's with rod of ages, do you always kill them with barely enough damage?


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Patyrn

Senior Member

10-13-2009

Quote:
725 Health*

And I really don't see how you're doing less damage. Maybe when I have 600 AP at the 30 mins mark, you have 800? I don't see how it's that big of a difference even in a pure damage standpoint. Rod of Ages is an amazing item. And actually, letting the enemy team do more damage overall isn't necessarily true. Most of the time I have plenty of overkill in my combos, and that's with rod of ages, do you always kill them with barely enough damage?
200 AP can easily be the difference between someone escaping with low health and dying. Very big deal.

Also, what's this myth a veigar with higher hp does more damage overall? What would make that the case?

That said, I do like rod of ages on veigar. I find I get focused a ton, so I like to be a bit less of a glass cannon. I personally get Rod of Ages -> Soulstealer -> Rylais. It's lots of damage, and pretty tanky too. (Boots thrown in there pretty early too, always swiftness because being faster is >>>>>>> 30ish ap)

I play with mord a lot, and his way definitely works too.


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Rokudan

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The Council

10-13-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patyrn View Post
200 AP can easily be the difference between someone escaping with low health and dying. Very big deal.

Also, what's this myth a veigar with higher hp does more damage overall? What would make that the case?

That said, I do like rod of ages on veigar. I find I get focused a ton, so I like to be a bit less of a glass cannon. I personally get Rod of Ages -> Soulstealer -> Rylais. It's lots of damage, and pretty tanky too. (Boots thrown in there pretty early too, always swiftness because being faster is >>>>>>> 30ish ap)

I play with mord a lot, and his way definitely works too.
Yes, 200 AP can. Give me a screenshot of you having 800 AP at 30 mins in in a normal game, no matter what the items.

How is having more hp a myth? Perhaps you have never played another game that you'd theorycraft about, but there will always be errant damage. You will get jumped by a stealther, ashe volley, random aoes, anything. If you have more hp, you can stay in the fight longer. If you're staying in the fight longer, you're casting more spells, which is doing more damage overall.

BTW: I suggest trying Zhonya instead of your Rylai. Because in fact, getting a Rylai is completely contradictory to what is being said. Veigar isn't a champ that is meant to slow and whittle someone down imo, get the firepower and take them out then and there.


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Asymptote

Associate Engineer

10-13-2009

I am a fan of having a bit more HP when playing Veigar. Just like Patyrn, I notice I am targetted more often than the rest of my team, espeically because my teammates prefer tanks or less squishy champs. Rod of Ages gives me enough HP for the entire game, then I go Zhonya's. I also love my brilliance potions.


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Pharmacologist

Senior Member

10-13-2009

Yeah not building a rod of ages on veigar is a mistake. "Glass cannon" approach is not effective against good players. You will get focused, tossed, stunned, and destroyed before you do even your first 3-hit combo. Or at least a rylai.

Bottom line is getting 0 survivability on a low survivability champion is not ultimately a winning strategy. Yeah sure it's fun to wreck lower-skilled players with an obscene pure AP build, but since you're talking about premades, it's best to give advice that is most relevant to beating decent premade opponents.


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Mordraer

Member

10-13-2009

Lots of you seem to think that Veigar needs a Rod of Ages because that extra health is going to be a huge difference-maker. I'm not here to tell you that the Rod of Ages is the devil, but I'll say that I strongly disagree that "it is a mistake to not have it." As a Veigar, you should never put yourself in a position to be hit for large amounts of damage, and if you are in a position to do so, the extra 725 health is going to save you for roughly 1 second longer. I'd much rather play smarter, not put myself into a vulnerable position, and have more AP and mana regen.

Here is my issue with building the Rod of Ages in lieu of the Archangel's Staff. Now, once again, this is MY OPINION, and is more in line with my playstyle. Is this the "correct way" to build a Veigar? Up to you. This is just my preference. Anyhow, on to my reasoning. If you build a Rod of Ages then that means you have to get a mana regen item at the start (likely a Chalice or a Tear), because otherwise you will run out of mana entirely too often, as Veigar sucks up mana big-time early game. So, the problem is that the Rod of Ages has no mana regen item that builds up to it, so essentially you're making your first item that will build to nothing (unless you go Tear and build an Archangel's Staff later after Zhonya's in a VERY long game). It's not TERRIBLE to have an item that doesn't build to anything, but I am a creature of efficiency. If I am devoting gold to an item, I want it to build to something. That's why I start out making my Tear, then going Sorc Boots, Soulstealer, Archangel's, and then Zhonya's. If it's a long game I'll go Abyssal Scepter after that. If I'm making a Rod of Ages in lieu of the Archangel's then I'm having to "start over" in terms of building it, thus putting me behind for getting my next items, specifically Zhonya's, which is the benchmark for when I transition from a mean Veigar to an extremely lethal Veigar.

Also, Archangel's gives you 20 more AP than Rod of Ages, and as the game continues it just gives you more and more (2% of your max mana). In a long game it could yield you well over 100 AP from a single item. Coupled with Zhonya's 25% increase, that is 125+ AP from ONE ITEM, plus tons of mana regen.

I chose Veigar because I love playing a highly-maximized glass cannon. I want to deal as much damage as is possible, with absolute wanton disregard for my own well-being. I play smart, I only push with stun, and I don't run around by myself after mid-game. You may think that this is a detriment, because I must just die all the time by not having that extra 725 health from Rod of Ages. Wrong. I don't. Ask my teammates, I don't die all that much. And the vast majority of the time that I do die, the 725 extra would not have prevented it. I'd much rather the extra AP to ensure that when I stun someone, the hell that is about to be brought to them will put them into black and white, not letting them run away with 100 health as I relish in my ability to live for 1 second longer with my 725 health.

And as for Brilliance pots, I don't do them, I'd rather use the cash for an Abyssal Scepter. I've tweaked this build a million times, and I have played well over 200 games with Veigar, so this all comes from a lot of experience. I am not just a casual Veigar player, I literally choose Veigar every single time I play unless I'm burned out and want to play a pug game as Fiddle or something.

So Roku, why don't you build a Soulstealer? That's 140 AP. In your guide, your justification of that is "Strengthening a champion's strengths just makes their weaknesses weaker." I take the opposite route. I say exploit your strengths. Make your AP so high that everyone has to get a Banshee's Veil just because of you. Be so destructive that your opponents just run from you unless it's a team fight. I have way more fun popping in, nuking a champion to his demise, popping out, and then rinse/repeat.

Your build of Tear, Sorc shoes, Rod of Ages, Zhonya's, then Archangel's just isn't nearly enough AP to nuke a champion down in one round of spells. Your Veigar is more utility than mine, obviously, so it certainly has its effectiveness in other ways. I simply prefer the complete offensive. Your guide was certainly helpful though for seeing other perspectives and considering other avenues. You certainly know your stuff, and I have no doubt you're a good Veigar based on reading it, but you and others should realize that not everyone plays the same way, and thus they will have different item builds. And some of those builds might not include any Rods of Ages. And that's okay. Also, note that when I play against other AP champs I tweak my build to get some MR, and I typically go for the Abyssal Scepter earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharmacologist View Post
Yeah not building a rod of ages on veigar is a mistake. "Glass cannon" approach is not effective against good players. You will get focused, tossed, stunned, and destroyed before you do even your first 3-hit combo. Or at least a rylai.
P.S. Veigar should NEVER EVER EVER get Rylai.