Reduction of Cho'gath death penalty.

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warmonkey

Senior Member

10-10-2009

Right, so when cho'gath is fully feasted, he's about the same as Rammus with dcurl up. It's on an 18sec base CD. If we just say the only CDR Rammus gets is from a frozen heart, that's still a 13.5 CD with a 6 sec duration! It's up nearly half the time! So rammus's average ehp would be let's just say a value halfway between the two.
so 280 armor, 175 MR, 3192 hp = 12129.6 ehp vs physical, 8778 ehp vs magic

I hope my math is right, correct me if it's not

That is darn close to your figures of cho'gath at full feast.
That means Cho'gath, at 6 feast, is about as good as Rammus is on average.

... now, there's an argument to be made about the skills they bring to the game. Yes.

But after he dies, suddenly he has
200 armor, 100 MR, 3330hp => 9990 ehp vs physical, 6660 ehp vs magic.
compare that to Rammus's average => 12129.6 ehp vs physical, 8778 ehp vs magic

Does Cho'gath really bring that much more to the table than Rammus to justify that difference? Is it really necessary or fun for the penalty to be as great as it is?


And honestly, doubling the gain and halving the stacks would only mean he has 6 stacks about 3 minutes after he hits 6. That's the 6-12 minute mark I'd say? Would 360 extra hit points 3 minutes faster, at that point in the game, really be that much more powerful? Nevermind how many minutes you can lose if someone in the lane is dancing around juuuust out of range with 4-450hp O_o wouldn't hurt near as bad if it took less stacks, or if it wasn't lost / completely lost on death. Something to make it seem less like you have to stay out of the thick of things for a few minutes after you die.. just doesn't really seem that fun ;\


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AI Assimilator

Senior Member

10-10-2009

warmonkey I actually deleted my post like over an hour ago with all the statistics, because it didnt bring a lot to this thread. I just wanted to show that theres more to tanking than just hp and realized that the post was way off topic. (all the mathcraft).

I dont mind if feast is changed to take half the time to stack up. However my suggestion would punish cho's who die too often (completely resetting it), while your suggestion would make cho'gath able to use his ult more often against champs and he will have a fully rank 1 feast 3 mins after his lvl 6 instead of 6 minutes. I didnt want to suggest any significant buff and others might see that as too much of a buff.

I said I dont agree with it, but I dont disagree with it and if they do implement your idea or mine without it making cho'gath OP I would be happy.


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Aknar

Senior Member

10-10-2009

I know it sounds kind of gamebreaking but how about decreasing the hp gain by 90%,halving the cd and making it something like yeti's consume?

ex:deal 200-350-500 to an enemy minion and get 10-12.5-15 health per kill,50-40-30 cd,stacks 60 times (900 hp) and lose 50% of stacks on death (like shadow fiend's damage gain skill from DOTA)


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Nayuki

Senior Member

10-10-2009

I'll say the Rammus comparison fails for trying to compare an ability that does epic damage on an AP Chog and has a PASSIVE benefit to a skill that has a down time, requires a constant mana commitment (Which Rammus is always dire lacking in until late game) to keep up that 'half the time', requires an activation (thus is useless if stunlocked/disabled/silenced) and disables his best escape/hassle (power ball).

Comparing those two skills in any way is hilarious.

That said, as long as Chog's Feast CD stayed the exact same as well as the damage doing the 1/2 charges, 2x hp wouldn't be that bad. Personally I think if you die as Chog you really deserve the current penalty as I love him immensely but you have to be playing really silly to die with him. Even though I think the current penalty is pretty fine I can agree that 6 minutes is a hassle (Guardian Angel pops quicker than that, and Resurrection only 50% slower) and could detract from a Chog's enjoyment of the game overall. Lowering charges/raising boost seems a fair way to change that.


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AI Assimilator

Senior Member

10-10-2009

In my mathcraft comparison I was just trying to show that hp isnt everything and I wasnt trying to prove that cho'gath or rammus were better than the other. Obviously defensive curl has 3 activation limitations: cooldown, disables and mana. I also said at the end of that post that each tank has its own advantages and disadvantages and my original post (not the one warmonkey read) had a list of them, but I decided to remove those as well.


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AI Assimilator

Senior Member

10-10-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyrous View Post
I know it sounds kind of gamebreaking but how about decreasing the hp gain by 90%,halving the cd and making it something like yeti's consume?

ex:deal 200-350-500 to an enemy minion and get 10-12.5-15 health per kill,50-40-30 cd,stacks 60 times (900 hp) and lose 50% of stacks on death (like shadow fiend's damage gain skill from DOTA)
wouldnt this be a massive nerf?
instead of 6 minutes after death for 0 hp to 900 hp it will take 15 minutes to go from 450 hp to 900 hp and would take like 45 minutes to get to 900 hp in the first place. Also would the damage be use-able on enemy champs or only minions?


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Justicebao

Junior Member

10-10-2009

Dun see why chogath needs a buff to make him death less painful.

He is already one of the hardest hero to kill. Reducing his massive hp is one of the perks to kill him. Its fine atm


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Smiling Bandit

Member

10-11-2009

Yeah but if u reduce the penalty on his death ppl are more likely to act his role as a tank. I do not like to tank with him exspecially when i am fully feasted on 6 stacks cause it will take me so long to get back to that point. My point is the more you have the less likely you are to use it. I presume that it is the same for many other players as well, when u are huge u wanna stay huge. Its just too cool to just waste it.


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Jackalope

Adjudicator

10-11-2009

I think Cho'Gath needs a redesign, I day change his passive to:
Adaptive Growth:
Every time Cho'Gath dies he gains more health and looses damage and AP, every time Cho'Gath kills an enemy hero he gains damage and AP and looses health

Change the passive on his ultimate to:
when cho'gath kills something he is healed, if feast kills something he is healed for 3x that amount

There should be a max stack for the adaptive growth, if he is at full HP (6 stacks of hp no stacks of damage) he should have his current base damage and the same max hp as he would have with full feast at that level. If he is at full damage he should have his current max hp without charges, and somewhere along the lines of 3ap/damage per charge at level 1, scaling up to 5 at level 6, 7 at 12, 9 at 18 (don't take these numbers as absolutes, the real ones will have to be tested in game, just giving an idea)


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Smiling Bandit

Member

10-11-2009

Hm, I like chogath the way he is. Only that tiny bit about the ult should be changed. Your suggestion would strongly encourage the Tank role since dying would make u a better tank and if you are a good tank u die for your team. In his courent version he can be played as a tank, a nuker or a physical dps making him very versatile.