Runes: +AP/Level vs Magic Penetration

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Xocolatl

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Senior Member

10-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBarnacle View Post
Wow. This is so much more detailed information than I ever expected from this post. It sure doesn't seem like it matters much at all, really. I'll probably stick to the AP just because I don't meleve MP can reduce a target below 0 MR, and thus AP will be more effective against creeps.
That would be quite correct--Magic Pen cannot reduce resist to below 0.
I usually play Soraka, so I see absolutely no use for it. And in pub games, people really don't stack magic resist. You would be lucky to see someone even buy an armor. Most of the time, people just stack damage items. That reduces the value of MP even more.

I stack CD reduction like a mad man today and got Soraka's Wish (500+2*AP heal for the entire map) down to 36sec cooldown from 60 seconds. Good fun.


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Quinnister

Senior Member

10-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xocolatl View Post
That would be quite correct--Magic Pen cannot reduce resist to below 0.
I usually play Soraka, so I see absolutely no use for it. And in pub games, people really don't stack magic resist. You would be lucky to see someone even buy an armor. Most of the time, people just stack damage items. That reduces the value of MP even more.

I stack CD reduction like a mad man today and got Soraka's Wish (500+2*AP heal for the entire map) down to 36sec cooldown from 60 seconds. Good fun.
I say nay, except with Soraka.

The lower their MR, the greater the magic penetration's effect. You'll almost never penetrate them to 0 without using something like an Abyssal, which CAN put them into the negatives.


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GNOY

Senior Member

10-08-2009

36 sec CD Chen's Ultimate? OMG. Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaax.


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Rudeboymike

Senior Member

10-09-2009

CD reduc is great to btw... but with shorter cooldowns, comes more casts, which means more maan spent.

so i believe there is balance to how much you have to cast and how much mana you regen.

But like one of the posters mentioned:
If AP ratio = 1:1, AP > MP
If AP ratio < 1:1, MP > AP


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Ambi

Member

10-09-2009

Theres also the issue of items with a passive related to your AP such as LichBane and Zhonya's, Zhonya's you could say gets an indirect boost through MP but for LichBane you;'ll be missing out on an extra 50 or so damage on your enhanced attack.

Also as an extra downside for CD reduction, it doesn't provide strength in the way of burst damage, so in that case where someone mentioned getting it for Evelyn, I prefer getting AP due me finding that I need her to do enough damage to kill before the second ravage.


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Atmosfear

Senior Member

10-09-2009

The choice varies from hero to hero. For example with Ryze, having -CD% won't help him very much considering his spells have fairly medium length CDs. The entire design of Ryze is to frontload his damage and if he doesn't kill you he runs away until his CDs are back up. Other champs with low CD abilities like Zilean's timebombs for example would benefit more from -CD%.

Regarding Magic Pen, it is useful for all caster heroes regardless. If the enemy is smart he will get MR and that can screw up your damage. The downside is I don't believe you can get very much of it. I think the maximum is like 12.48 (I don't think you can get Marks and Seals for Magic Pen anymore).


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Rudeboymike

Senior Member

10-10-2009

12 MP + -15% from masteries + Abyssal Scepter (30 MP) + Fiddlestick's passive = A lot, maybe overkill though, lol


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Mordraer

Member

10-12-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanji Watsuki View Post
-CD% reduction is a great one to take, overall. I cannot think of a single downside to that.

Magic Pen vs. AP is a much better discussion. At the bare minimum, a champion will have 30 MR. With Archaic Knowledge, 15% of this is knocked off. Using your glyphs and quints, you can achieve a 12 spell penetration from your runes.

(100/130) - (100/((100) + (30-12)*0.85)) should model the % of damage you could expect to do more against a base level magic resistance. Basically, a 9.8% difference. By comparison, if they buy a 50 MR item, the difference changes to (100/180) - (100/((100) + (80-12)*0.85)) or 7.8%. Either way, it is a solid damage increase overall. For reference, this means 1000 burst magic damage results in 78 more damage.

AP, on the other hand, would increase the damage directly. Our spell damage would deal more damage against their base (100/100 + (30*0.85)) damage reducer.

Working off the best possible case for magic penetration, let's suppose our spell does 300 damage normally but we have an extra 51 AP (the amount of AP from glyphs and quints at lv18).

1:1 ratio
300 * (100/130) = 230 base damage
351 * (100/(100 + (30*0.85))) = 279 damage
300 * (100/((100) + (30-12)*0.85)) = 260 damage

750 * (100/130) = 577 base damage
801* (100/(100 + (30*0.85))) = 638 damage
750* (100/((100) + (30-12)*0.85)) = 650 damage

As you can see, AP does better at lower damages however spell penetration does more at higher damages. Either way, the difference is slight. If your AP ratio is lower than 1, spell penetration has a larger advantage. As the enemy stacks MR, AP has a larger advantage.

However, if -CD lets you spam one more spell than these other ones, -CD becomes the victor.

It's all a matter of taste because each has its own purposes.
so as a veigar player i stack AP runes, unless there is another high dps caster on my team to encourage them to get MR, in which case i'll play my magic pen runes. does this seem like a reasonable action based on your number crunching?


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Emrot

Senior Member

10-12-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanji Watsuki View Post
(100/130) - (100/((100) + (30-12)*0.85)) should model the % of damage you could expect to do more against a base level magic resistance. Basically, a 9.8% difference. By comparison, if they buy a 50 MR item, the difference changes to (100/180) - (100/((100) + (80-12)*0.85)) or 7.8%. Either way, it is a solid damage increase overall. For reference, this means 1000 burst magic damage results in 78 more damage.
It's (100/130) - (100/((100)+(30*0.85-12)). The % applies before spell pen (but after -magic resist).

1:1 ratio
300 * (100/130) = 230 base damage
351 * (100/(100 + (30*0.85))) = 279 damage
300 * (100/((100) + (30*0.85-12))) = 264 damage (+4 from your calc)

750 * (100/130) = 577 base damage
801* (100/(100 + (30*0.85))) = 638 damage
750* (100/((100) + (30*0.85-12))) = 661 damage (+11 from your calc)


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SexLethal

Member

10-12-2009

Anivia's AP ratio is .5 or less for her abilities. Would it better to go all out MR? (I usually stack all AP runes and go for frozen heart for CD)


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