@Riot Teemo NEED buffs, and here is why.

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Warm One

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yfrappefort View Post
...
Told you. This is exactly how I saw things would happen. It also gives affirmation that Riot will not rework him ever. He'll always be broken, hated, annoying, old news, and popular to casual demographics. Never will he be updated, especially to serious competitive statues. Only nerfs and stagnation await him in the long run. Riot will patch out any advantage he can get over other champs in items, map pathing, scouting, etc.... And as Morello said, Riot bases development on what people like majority-wise. The small, small minority that don't want Teemo to be deleted will never have the power to change that.


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deadlychuck

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Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ktonos View Post
But don't fret Riot is making it some dumb people that face check bushes can walk over shrooms without caring again. Congrats =)
Umm if you want to clear a teemo shroom in a bush you have 4 options
1) face check bush with oracles
2) use the new clairvoyance
3) carry around 2 stacks of pink wards
4) play zyra, plant a seed, and hope it was on top of the shroom

it isn't that people are necessarily being dumb and face checking bushes, it's that there is no way to detect or eliminate the shrooms without doing so


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deadlychuck

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Senior Member

12-10-2012

And here is why teemo doesn't need a nerf

Q - counter to all champions who's majority of damage come from AA (all ADC and bruisers really)
--Although i do agree with the post in that blind should work like a Nocturne ult instead.

W - counter to skill shot focused champions and champions with weak chasing ability
--At least teemo has a move for positioning and escape, i mean look at TF

E - Massive built in DPS increase (much like varus w), consistant damage
-- no longer any issue just buy a Hurricane and it's GG

R - forces the purchase of either oracles or vision wards, further increases kiting, massive portion of carries' health if hit, free warding, prevent enemy ganks
-- The post is actually just wrong about this one, it's very costly to counter teemo's ult effectively throughout the game, yes by late late game when you have tons of extra gold they are easily countered but so what. And the part about udyr with the shrooms is just asinine, yes a trap by itself udyr doesn't have to worry about but he shouldn't have to (even though most every champ does)... Also "flaw" of having to facecheck a bush works for both parties, if you place them right in said bush then the next enemy (oracles or not) to walk in the bush will get hit no matter what.


Honestly they could buff him but before that his ult would need to be massively nerfed, they are to difficult to counter. Either making them slightly visible if careful (like a nid trap), able to be hit by skill shots (like champions when stealthed), or giving oracles the ability to spot them in a bush without having to enter it.

while he does lack a hard CC he in no way needs one, Trundle, Karma, Eve, Kha' zix, Trynd, Varus, MF, Sivir, Fiora, Swain, Vlad, Yorick, Karthus, Zed, Talon, Olaf, exc dont have a hard CC but they have less CC than teemo still


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Ktonos

Senior Member

12-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlychuck View Post
Umm if you want to clear a teemo shroom in a bush you have 4 options
1) face check bush with oracles
2) use the new clairvoyance
3) carry around 2 stacks of pink wards
4) play zyra, plant a seed, and hope it was on top of the shroom

it isn't that people are necessarily being dumb and face checking bushes, it's that there is no way to detect or eliminate the shrooms without doing so
Or you just don't walk into a bush when your low health? I know that's a tough one for a-lot of people to think of but believe it or not it works 100% of the time. I do this every game I play I don't understand why its so hard for other's. Keep in mind for 6-10 you can walk on pretty much every shroom (again as long as your not low health) and not even care.

Not to mention everyone that has played against Teemo should pretty much know where the shrooms are to start with. 90% of teemo player's pretty much put them in bushes and ward dragon/baron with them. You really need to not be thinking to hit more than a few shrooms each game.


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Mathemagically

Member

12-11-2012

and here we have OP being wrong.


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Ktonos

Senior Member

12-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticfury View Post
There is no reason to buff Teemo. Pointing out all his weaknesses and saying fix them without acknowledging his strengths is pretty pointless.

He has shrooms, mean, last a long time, and at level 3 you can place them all over. He has poison that ticks even after the battle is over. He has a quick escape, and when active it is not ruined by being hit. He is extremely fast before being hit just on passive. He can hide in the middle of the lane. His attack speed is insane and his blind is great against other ADCs.

So to balance out these strengths Riot made him squishy, they made his passive speed boost die when hit, they gave him a somewhat weaker Ult, unless you count that it can be used constantly and lies in wait in every bush and every path.

So if they buff his weaknesses, what strengths are you willing to give up? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
OK lets look at his strengths as you mentioned.

His shrooms last a long time. This is true and is the main reason I play Teemo. I love the board control he offers through vision without using as much gold. They deal a good amount of damage atm (though about to be nerfed) as-well as slow the enemy and place a dot on them. There's one advantage no real disadvantage since until the nerf it stays in line with a fair amount of APCs ultimate damage but does require people to walk over it or drop it as your about to die/get engaged on.

His blind. At early lvls is nice depending on who your laning against, deals nice poke with a good range. Post level 4 the damage is negligable since you would hafta be retarded to max it first so it leaves us with a short duration blind which is just annoying but still allows them to use an ability to CS and deal damage. Late game its a 2 second AA stopper useful on a few toons. I would say Blind has a built in loss of strength to it.

Move Quick. This spell is laughable at best decent enough early game if your laning against someone with no CC at all (which isn't very many champions including some of which he hard counter's). Late game this "escape" mechanism is all but useless unless your split pushing with a large amount of ward/shroom coverage to use it early enough (AKA when anyone is within 3 seconds distance from you). So again I would say this has it's own built in disadvantage since it doesn't clear a stun/slow and doesn't work when your stun or slowed.

Toxic Shot. Our only controllable sustainable damage. Nice damage no dispute there gives a posion which ticks long after the 2 seconds we got focused and killed by since we have almost no survivability regardless of what we build. Not to mention it is built into our AA which has the lowest range of any ranged champion in the game (our aa actually has less range than the caster minions lol). So while it deals comparable damage to say half an ADC carries build (when the teemo is full build) we must be in kill range for any other other ranged champion to use it. The dot doesn't stack either so again I would say the loss of strength is built right in.

Our passive. Gives us the ability to be stealthed and we get 30% attack speed when we come out of it. Now granted this can be stopped much like the Akali bubble and Eves normal stealth by using an Oracle or a pink ward. The only difference is we can't move to re-position and keep it, it is a one shot deal for us each time. Again built in loss of strength.

Now the question is are the disadvantages bigger than the advantages? To say the least about it, that would be a huge yes. And I will explain why.

Rank one of shrooms gets no nerf of course it is useless for anything but a ward anyways as anyone with more than 5% health can walk into it and live.

Rank 2 is getting nerfed by 19% or 325 damage+ .8 ap for initial explosion and another .2 on the dot. At lvl 11 Teemo doesn't have a ton of AP (not that he ever does compared to other AP champions.

Rank 3 is a huge 25% nerf. At this point even the weakest champion breaks 2k life. 450 base damage plus the .8AP for initial explosion and .2 for the dot (btw the dot is 4 seconds in case ya didn't know.) So at full AP being 600 our ult (which requires someone to walk into or already be in a fight with them and drop it) does at max 1050 damage. That's before MR which spell pen would affect of course.

List of AP champions with far better ult damage (all of which is targettable and doesn't require luck to hit it) With the same 600 AP

Veigar 1220

Katarina 1650+ 3*AD

Gragas 1050 (how about that one that's even with Teemo who'd have though it explains why hes never picked lol)

Karthus 910 (actually 4550 since its almost guaranteed to hit every single champion (some exceptions such as Vlad pool and Elise rappel of course apply) but it also hits anyone globally including stealthed)

Anivia 310 damage per second to anyone in the toggled Ult (it's not only completely control-able since it can be toggled and placed where-ever but the radius is huge)

Ryze well we can't really put a number on it since it boosts his other spells but it still gives 25% of the damage he does as life gain.

So compared to just this small list how can anyone say that Teemo's ult is on par with other AP's.

Now we won't even get into other Teemo builds which have little to no AP in them they basically get a ward that does a slow and that's it.

So I would really like a good explanation as to why Teemo is getting nerfed?

Sure he hits fast only because he buys a-lot of attack speed items just as any champion can do. Toxic shot isn't effect by items with Spell vamp so AP Teemo has no life gain to speak of and is one of, if not the, squishiest champs in the game.

So which advantages do we even have to give up to strengthen our weaknesses at this point?


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Ktonos

Senior Member

12-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlychuck View Post
[B]

Honestly they could buff him but before that his ult would need to be massively nerfed, they are to difficult to counter. Either making them slightly visible if careful (like a nid trap), able to be hit by skill shots (like champions when stealthed), or giving oracles the ability to spot them in a bush without having to enter it.

while he does lack a hard CC he in no way needs one, Trundle, Karma, Eve, Kha' zix, Trynd, Varus, MF, Sivir, Fiora, Swain, Vlad, Yorick, Karthus, Zed, Talon, Olaf, exc dont have a hard CC but they have less CC than teemo still
FYI Yorick actually can trigger shrooms with his ghoul lol. Zyra plants work also not to mention just not walking into bushes, pink wards,oracles etc etc

Of the champions you listed most of them are AD and or have a target-able slow for. Zed has a shadow to flash to at will,Karthus has a target-able wall to slow which works even if flashed through. Vlad, Yorick, Swain all have life gain not to mention better range. Talon has a slow and a nice escape mechanic. Kha'zix has life gain, one of the best escape mechanics in the game and a Q that hits as hard as our shrooms at lvl 18 lol.

Really Fiora is the only weak champion you listed since she is an all or nothing champ and even she can pretty much handle any Teemo 1v1.

And most of them have more CC than Teemo at max level Teemo's blind is only 2 seconds lol.

Truth is with the up-coming nerfs Teemo will be a troll pick in any ranked game for all but the lowest of Elo's and forced back into his counterpick game like he was last season. He will never be seen in a tournament again which is a shame since he is actually one of the most fun champions in the game.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

12-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ktonos View Post
OK lets look at his strengths as you mentioned.

His shrooms last a long time. This is true and is the main reason I play Teemo. I love the board control he offers through vision without using as much gold. They deal a good amount of damage atm (though about to be nerfed) as-well as slow the enemy and place a dot on them. There's one advantage no real disadvantage since until the nerf it stays in line with a fair amount of APCs ultimate damage but does require people to walk over it or drop it as your about to die/get engaged on.

His blind. At early lvls is nice depending on who your laning against, deals nice poke with a good range. Post level 4 the damage is negligable since you would hafta be retarded to max it first so it leaves us with a short duration blind which is just annoying but still allows them to use an ability to CS and deal damage. Late game its a 2 second AA stopper useful on a few toons. I would say Blind has a built in loss of strength to it.

Move Quick. This spell is laughable at best decent enough early game if your laning against someone with no CC at all (which isn't very many champions including some of which he hard counter's). Late game this "escape" mechanism is all but useless unless your split pushing with a large amount of ward/shroom coverage to use it early enough (AKA when anyone is within 3 seconds distance from you). So again I would say this has it's own built in disadvantage since it doesn't clear a stun/slow and doesn't work when your stun or slowed.

Toxic Shot. Our only controllable sustainable damage. Nice damage no dispute there gives a posion which ticks long after the 2 seconds we got focused and killed by since we have almost no survivability regardless of what we build. Not to mention it is built into our AA which has the lowest range of any ranged champion in the game (our aa actually has less range than the caster minions lol). So while it deals comparable damage to say half an ADC carries build (when the teemo is full build) we must be in kill range for any other other ranged champion to use it. The dot doesn't stack either so again I would say the loss of strength is built right in.

Our passive. Gives us the ability to be stealthed and we get 30% attack speed when we come out of it. Now granted this can be stopped much like the Akali bubble and Eves normal stealth by using an Oracle or a pink ward. The only difference is we can't move to re-position and keep it, it is a one shot deal for us each time. Again built in loss of strength.

Now the question is are the disadvantages bigger than the advantages? To say the least about it, that would be a huge yes. And I will explain why.

Rank one of shrooms gets no nerf of course it is useless for anything but a ward anyways as anyone with more than 5% health can walk into it and live.

Rank 2 is getting nerfed by 19% or 325 damage+ .8 ap for initial explosion and another .2 on the dot. At lvl 11 Teemo doesn't have a ton of AP (not that he ever does compared to other AP champions.

Rank 3 is a huge 25% nerf. At this point even the weakest champion breaks 2k life. 450 base damage plus the .8AP for initial explosion and .2 for the dot (btw the dot is 4 seconds in case ya didn't know.) So at full AP being 600 our ult (which requires someone to walk into or already be in a fight with them and drop it) does at max 1050 damage. That's before MR which spell pen would affect of course.

List of AP champions with far better ult damage (all of which is targettable and doesn't require luck to hit it) With the same 600 AP

Veigar 1220

Katarina 1650+ 3*AD

Gragas 1050 (how about that one that's even with Teemo who'd have though it explains why hes never picked lol)

Karthus 910 (actually 4550 since its almost guaranteed to hit every single champion (some exceptions such as Vlad pool and Elise rappel of course apply) but it also hits anyone globally including stealthed)

Anivia 310 damage per second to anyone in the toggled Ult (it's not only completely control-able since it can be toggled and placed where-ever but the radius is huge)

Ryze well we can't really put a number on it since it boosts his other spells but it still gives 25% of the damage he does as life gain.

So compared to just this small list how can anyone say that Teemo's ult is on par with other AP's.

Now we won't even get into other Teemo builds which have little to no AP in them they basically get a ward that does a slow and that's it.

So I would really like a good explanation as to why Teemo is getting nerfed?

Sure he hits fast only because he buys a-lot of attack speed items just as any champion can do. Toxic shot isn't effect by items with Spell vamp so AP Teemo has no life gain to speak of and is one of, if not the, squishiest champs in the game.

So which advantages do we even have to give up to strengthen our weaknesses at this point?
The nerf is more of a push to play AD Teemo imo. AD items are cheaper, Teemo rocks with AD, LS and AS. Frozen Mallet gives him a bit of defense, and while I agree that he has horrible escape compared to someone like Ahri or Sejuani, he has a great chase and better escape compared to someone like Diana who has no escape. Building AD with a couple Hybrid AP items gives Teemo a nice little punch to those who build Armor and fail to build MR. The game is so AP heavy right now I have no idea why you'd build AP Teemo when the enemy will be better off build MR to mitigate 3.5 (sup counts as half) enemy champs and a little arm for the ADC.

What I think has happened is that AP Teemo is a thing of the past. And really, I think AP Teemo only worked when you had a heavy AD team and your opponents weren't able to build much MR.

Also, I wrote those responses prior to S3, so I'd like to point out that everything I wrote in the past was concerning S2 Teemo. I am sad to see that AP Teemo is no longer viable, but if they rebalance the AP skills then they'll have to throttle back the AD qualities of Teemo.

So I believe the title should be a request to buff AP Teemo. AD Teemo is fine.


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King Luiii

Member

12-11-2012

AP Teemo is so OP right now


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Yfrappefort

Senior Member

12-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Luiii View Post
AP Teemo is so OP right now
It's because of people like you that he is getting nerfed.