@Riot Teemo NEED buffs, and here is why.

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lllDadalll

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Senior Member

06-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ningengiraii View Post
LOL!!! Seriously? HA!! The LOL community is so detached from Teemo. Teemo needs some **** buffs. I just read a whole **** book asking for Heim buffs. But Heim brings more to the table than Teemo.

I am sorry but Teemos early game is not worth it. Other champs can do what he does and still be useful late game. Teemo needs buffs. And if you are playing AP Teemo and pwning you are playing baddies.
Seing as baddies make up 90% of the LoL community, I really couldn't care less.

As for Heim bringing more to the table than Teemo, ***** please.


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Chaede

Senior Member

06-13-2012

Sigh. Sorry you don't like breaking up the message Blue Jelly but it is easiest to respond to the false statements you make at relevant points.

Blind is 80+ undodgeable damage... like just about any other point and click 'spell.' Except given the lack of mana sustain Teemo has it costs a large chunk of his low regen mana to use. It's nice but pretty much on par with any other activate non AA in the game early on. Later on the scaling and cd make it too poor to be a 'nuke.' This is why AP Teemo isn't actually viable.

Only AA's that start after blind hits actually get block. Typically, the exchange with another ranged goes something like:

Teemo opens, other champion returns fire, blind hits after first shot is taken by the enemy champion, Teemo gets hit losing his passive speed bonus, disengage, normally out of Teemo's AA range. This means Teemo has to either chase, only getting in range when blind wears off or he withdraws.

Blind doesn't counter Auto Attacks already in flight. Meaning it rarely blocks the first attack, meaning Teemo loses the passive speed bonus that he needs to harass.

Its hardly an insane amount of damage. Particularly after the laning phase. If it is too high early another simple fix would be to lower the base damage and increase the scaling. This might help some of his problems late game.

For harass upfront versus delayed does make a difference. All the difference between getting a kill or knowing they will be in a health range where you can get a kill without being caught or killed. Its not but its back loaded damage which is a lot less effective than up front damage. Other ranged AD get a lot more from lifesteal as their damage is physical. Sure at level 1 Teemo's harass is slightly better on 1 attack if you can get in and out of range before being hit more than once. Otherwise it is about on par. Additionally, due to the really short range Teemo has he is more vulnerable to things like Pantheon's gap closer or Darius' pull. Teemo's range is less than Pantheon's jump/stun more and only just longer than Darius grab (though Darius can move forward while using his move meaning Teemo will get caught most of the time).

Teemo can stay stealthed and abort an ambush true. Unfortunately that requires that Teemo was waiting knowing that the other team were going to come by his position for more than 3 seconds. He needs to be both prophetic and do nothing, not farming, not helping in another fight, not planting shrooms. Chances of that circumstance happening are very low. Otherwise, like more assassinations it is more a chance meeting or a deliberate move to enemy position. Teemo's passive is entirely useless for those. It works very rarely. Other assassin characters like Shaco, Eve (ok she is bad atm) and Twitch can escape better than Teemo if it does turn out to be 3 v 1.

MF's passive is a passive, Teemo's is a skill that has to be levelled. They have similar functions but otherwise cost wise are entirely different. MF has a snare as well, Teemo's snare takes half a second to plant, and a second to be able to take effect. It is far less useable on the run. MF also has a longer range + double up (somewhat unreliable) meaning her harass range is longer than Teemo's. half a second stopping to lay a shroom is a very long time when you are running away. Make it rain at least can be cast on the champ, immediately has an effect. Teemo's active is nice but it costs Teemo a lot more to get it. In short its not a good comparison due to the opportunity cost of Teemo having it (i.e. 5 skill points on a better skill).

As to Wota? Why get Wota on Teemo when there are other better more effective AP items with similar costs that benefit Teemo more. If he isn't getting the benefit of spellvamp than WoTa is a total waste. Feels like you are trying to justify a bad argument. I never see Kog with WoTA by the way, he, like Teemo gets too little benefit from it to be cost effective. Give it to a real AP who gets full benefit from it.

Early game harass isn't that great, and as I said lowering base damage on E and improve scaling fixes that. My suggestions all make sense. Yor objections are kind of derp as his early game still doesn't make him that great, there are plenty of other toons who have a better early game and remain better all the way through the game. His harass is decent but not godly given how easy Teemo is to squash.

Teemo's harass drops amazingly if his opponent buys even the 400g magic resist item. By level 6 the harass is outclassed by other champs that can capitilise on their harass, something Teemo can only do if the other player is really bad. Teemo is really effective only when the other player is bad, he has a very low skill cap (mostly movement and placing) since he has just about no active abilities.

Shrooms having a longer placement range does two things, 1 it allows Teemo to plant a shroom in bushes without facechecking and dying. Once he is in melee range he is probably dead. Two it allows them to be placed behind an enemy during a fight cutting off escapes. Its not a perfect fix but it helps.

If you got over your fear of Teemo's early game which is only good because he is normally against melee opponents in top lane you might be able to see your way to providing fixes or QoL changes. Send another ranged top if Teemo is top and stomp him. Strong defense bruisers with good sustain (Yorick, Nasus, Renekton) also do very well against him. Even Panth played properly will destroy Teemo.


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Baellor

Member

06-14-2012

Bumping.

Please stop trying to turn Teemo into another boring AD carry. Teemo is not designed to be an AD carry - yes you can play him that way - but then again you can play kayle and janna that way too - but you loose out on a large part of the rest of their perspective kits by doing so. Kayle's AOE damage is based on her AP, while you will still get some magic damage on the AOE portion of the attack you loose any AP bonus to that damage (.2 isnt all that much - but if you get to 500 AP thats 100 damage ), as well you loose out on kayle's bonus to heals and a portion of the damage on the slow. Same things with Janna.

Point is - Teemo scales best with AP and attack speed and cdr. Thing like malady and nashtors tooth can provide an insane amount of bonus damage for teemo compared to most other AP characters and almost all AD based characters. Teemo has low base AD and poor AD scaling. With the same AD items Ashe, Cait, and most the other AD carries will produce far better results than Teemo will. The one exception is that first 2 seconds of the fight when Teemo has them blind - and that is only against the enemy AD carry that doesnt know how to play against Teemo and save skills for the blind.

The main problems with Teemo as he current works - he is AP based but lacks the burst of other AP characters - but due to short range combined with low AD base/gain and low health and armor/mr - he also cannot compete with other ranged carries. The insult is added in the fact that even considering those factors - they then provide an ultimate for teemo that requires a face check to use and has a setup time before its active. Then the injury is the fact that he has possibly the worst escape/chase mechanic in the game that is easily turned off by any attack other than minions/neutrals.

Teemo's passive E skill needs to be made into an active with a much higher damage like other AP based skills - to allow Teemo to have a better burst capability but to reduce his early game harass. His range would be fine at that point if they gave both his blind and his toxic shot a slightly better range to bring it up to par with many of the other AP based abilities. Mushrooms should have a casting range just like all the other trap laying characters in the game - Malz, Victor, Cait, and Nida all have traps they can throw around - and they all have a greater range than Teemo's mushrooms and for both cait and nida provide the extra benefit of marking the enemy for a short duration after they hit the trap.'


Note - for the person talking about Teemo's poison being a cheap tactic - there are multiple other champions in the game that can do the same thing: to name a few - Malz, Swain, Tristana, Darius, Draven, Singed, Rumble and shyv (if you get caught in their ult path), Cass. Point is - you only think poison is cheap because its called poison - its no different than any other DOT in the game to include Ignite. Some of those are avoidable - others like Malz and Swain are direct application and, Swains dot makes all his other abilities do more damage, and Malz dot can jump from target to target if something dies. Teemo's dot does neither of these extra benefits and does far less damage and has less AP scaling.


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Happpy Thoughts

Member

06-14-2012

[


QUOTE=lightandarkness;23537907]They need to buff the ratio on teemo toxic shot and toxic shot should give a range boost per level. I thinking something along the line 18 to 20 per.

Teemo blind shot should be change to paralyzed shot. A short duration stun 1.5 to 2 second at max level.

move quick should include a invisible 2 second first level and 5 second max level.

teemo shroom a further range 500 and a color scheme per shroom. Red for champ, Black for minion and green for both[/QUOTE]

I would have one day of 200 + elo solo queue queue climbing, even with them auto banning teemo more and more as the day progressed.. I would love it for 2 weeks. but i wouldn't be able to play teemo in anything but normals.. it would bring ad bot lane teemo back into play..this would be like old buffed tryn. :P
i love teemo, i want buffs.. but giving him a ranged stun, and making him get
90 to 100 bonus range by level 9- outranging most ad bots at that point.. while maximizing his ranged harrass. :P)

and giving him a vayne ult's variant on his base move speed.. I love teemo, but those buffs. would be like.. God MODE-activated..:P!
keep encouraging thinking out buffs and options and things though. I know we'll hit the nail on the head eventually.


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Zavern

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Teemo does not need a buff. I've seen plenty of Teemos go 1v1 against tanks, and mow them down within a few seconds. Just go AP Teemo.


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The Blue Jelly

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaede View Post
Sigh. Sorry you don't like breaking up the message Blue Jelly but it is easiest to respond to the false statements you make at relevant points.

Blind is 80+ undodgeable damage... like just about any other point and click 'spell.' Except given the lack of mana sustain Teemo has it costs a large chunk of his low regen mana to use. It's nice but pretty much on par with any other activate non AA in the game early on. Later on the scaling and cd make it too poor to be a 'nuke.' This is why AP Teemo isn't actually viable.

Only AA's that start after blind hits actually get block. Typically, the exchange with another ranged goes something like:

Teemo opens, other champion returns fire, blind hits after first shot is taken by the enemy champion, Teemo gets hit losing his passive speed bonus, disengage, normally out of Teemo's AA range. This means Teemo has to either chase, only getting in range when blind wears off or he withdraws.

Blind doesn't counter Auto Attacks already in flight. Meaning it rarely blocks the first attack, meaning Teemo loses the passive speed bonus that he needs to harass.

Its hardly an insane amount of damage. Particularly after the laning phase. If it is too high early another simple fix would be to lower the base damage and increase the scaling. This might help some of his problems late game.

For harass upfront versus delayed does make a difference. All the difference between getting a kill or knowing they will be in a health range where you can get a kill without being caught or killed. Its not but its back loaded damage which is a lot less effective than up front damage. Other ranged AD get a lot more from lifesteal as their damage is physical. Sure at level 1 Teemo's harass is slightly better on 1 attack if you can get in and out of range before being hit more than once. Otherwise it is about on par. Additionally, due to the really short range Teemo has he is more vulnerable to things like Pantheon's gap closer or Darius' pull. Teemo's range is less than Pantheon's jump/stun more and only just longer than Darius grab (though Darius can move forward while using his move meaning Teemo will get caught most of the time).

Teemo can stay stealthed and abort an ambush true. Unfortunately that requires that Teemo was waiting knowing that the other team were going to come by his position for more than 3 seconds. He needs to be both prophetic and do nothing, not farming, not helping in another fight, not planting shrooms. Chances of that circumstance happening are very low. Otherwise, like more assassinations it is more a chance meeting or a deliberate move to enemy position. Teemo's passive is entirely useless for those. It works very rarely. Other assassin characters like Shaco, Eve (ok she is bad atm) and Twitch can escape better than Teemo if it does turn out to be 3 v 1.

MF's passive is a passive, Teemo's is a skill that has to be levelled. They have similar functions but otherwise cost wise are entirely different. MF has a snare as well, Teemo's snare takes half a second to plant, and a second to be able to take effect. It is far less useable on the run. MF also has a longer range + double up (somewhat unreliable) meaning her harass range is longer than Teemo's. half a second stopping to lay a shroom is a very long time when you are running away. Make it rain at least can be cast on the champ, immediately has an effect. Teemo's active is nice but it costs Teemo a lot more to get it. In short its not a good comparison due to the opportunity cost of Teemo having it (i.e. 5 skill points on a better skill).

As to Wota? Why get Wota on Teemo when there are other better more effective AP items with similar costs that benefit Teemo more. If he isn't getting the benefit of spellvamp than WoTa is a total waste. Feels like you are trying to justify a bad argument. I never see Kog with WoTA by the way, he, like Teemo gets too little benefit from it to be cost effective. Give it to a real AP who gets full benefit from it.

Early game harass isn't that great, and as I said lowering base damage on E and improve scaling fixes that. My suggestions all make sense. Yor objections are kind of derp as his early game still doesn't make him that great, there are plenty of other toons who have a better early game and remain better all the way through the game. His harass is decent but not godly given how easy Teemo is to squash.

Teemo's harass drops amazingly if his opponent buys even the 400g magic resist item. By level 6 the harass is outclassed by other champs that can capitilise on their harass, something Teemo can only do if the other player is really bad. Teemo is really effective only when the other player is bad, he has a very low skill cap (mostly movement and placing) since he has just about no active abilities.

Shrooms having a longer placement range does two things, 1 it allows Teemo to plant a shroom in bushes without facechecking and dying. Once he is in melee range he is probably dead. Two it allows them to be placed behind an enemy during a fight cutting off escapes. Its not a perfect fix but it helps.

If you got over your fear of Teemo's early game which is only good because he is normally against melee opponents in top lane you might be able to see your way to providing fixes or QoL changes. Send another ranged top if Teemo is top and stomp him. Strong defense bruisers with good sustain (Yorick, Nasus, Renekton) also do very well against him. Even Panth played properly will destroy Teemo.
Not everyone with point-click spells have mana sustain. And yeah. It's on-par with all other point-click spells. Buff it too hard and it becomes OP.

Actually I'm fairly certain it *does* stop in-flight AAs, since I recall it doing that every time I've vs'd him mid. You know, since mid doesn't have the ridiculously fast AA animations of bot.

What makes it an insane amount of damage is the volume of the first attack being as large as it is. Taking a singular hit from Teemo early hurts bad. This enables him to deny CS or force pots/heals. Sure he has short range, but it's because if it was much longer he'd have MORE ridiculous harass.

For Harass, it DOES NOT make a difference. For going for a kill, yes it does. But Harass is all about getting off some damage and GTFOing. Doesn't matter if it's DoT or not. Otherwise Malzahar is instantly the worst mage in the game and cannot zone anyone. And nobody can say that with a straight face.

The 3 seconds is overly long, but this is why I support swapping his E and is passive if we're going the AD route with him.

They're SLOWS, NOT SNARES, and if you ask what the difference is, one's soft CC and the other is medium CC. Slows do not prevent you from moving, they only make you less good at it. If slows are equal to movement, Ashe and Sej are competing for fastest champion right now. However, I do concede her kit speed isn't as bad; though comparing Teemo's shroom's slow to MF's slow deserves a few beatings since they're used so differently.

I'm sorry, I forgot that WotA is not an Aura item that most mages will buy before endgame. I never said they were buying it, and considering I was grouping it with Baron Buff and said 30 AP instead of 80, I would have hoped you'd have realized I was talking about benefiting from the aura. But you didn't, oh well. The bit about Koggy was because he has a large component of his damage as magic, yet isn't complaining about the fact that he's dealing split damage.

So his early game isn't as good as I make it out to be. He still counters who he counters hilariously hard. Buffing him instead of reworking him would make it worse, not better.

If it seems like I'm running out of steam it's because I am. If I were to really press each of these points, I'd have a post that could easily be about 80% copypasta from my last post. We're starting to argue in circles ._. Oh, and no, breaking up a post doesn't make it easier to respond to specific points. If someone reading the argument cannot figure out which point is being responded to, either the counterpoint is being presented poorly (and thus is weak anyways) or the reader is an idiot and shouldn't be replying in the first place. All it does is make it easy to screw with context and fluff the size of your post. Its benefit is only to feeble arguments and minds. Ergo, it's a Bad Thing that should not be done.


To Baellor
The problem is Teemo and Darius are the only ones whose dots are applied *every* autoattack. Darius is melee, so you can at least kite his. Everyone else can be avoided or punished for it, or are using an ability (which has a CD, potential mana cost, etc). Good DoTs applied on AAs are a bad and annoying concept.
And if you *don't* think Teemo shrooms are infuriating to play against, well, I want whatever it is that you're on, because it's some reeeeeeally good ****.


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Yfrappefort

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zavern View Post
Teemo does not need a buff. I've seen plenty of Teemos go 1v1 against tanks, and mow them down within a few seconds. Just go AP Teemo.
Teemo can own baddies. So can Eve. Your point? And please, for the love of god, AP Teemo is BAD. BAD, BAD, BAD! I can't believe so many summoners keep saying "go AP Teemo" when any real AP will do a WAY BETTER job then he could ever hope to achieve in that role.


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Baellor

Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yfrappefort View Post
Teemo can own baddies. So can Eve. Your point? And please, for the love of god, AP Teemo is BAD. BAD, BAD, BAD! I can't believe so many summoners keep saying "go AP Teemo" when any real AP will do a WAY BETTER job then he could ever hope to achieve in that role.

Pure AP teemo is not really a great choice - the trick is Teemo is AP + atk speed. AP buffs his only real steroid, which is not all that great to start with but when stacked with a decent amount of AP and ATK speed it becomes viable. If you can get the trick down of getting his stealth to pop off and then come out with a couple of fast attacks followed by blind - you can really stack his damage up with an AP/ATK speed build.


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Straw Hat Teemo

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Senior Member

06-18-2012

Bump for Panda Teemo!


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Basil Ali

Senior Member

06-18-2012

They're probably getting more skins for Teemo because they feel bad for him not being changed. ^_^