Why do junglers refuse to help lanes that are doing poorly?

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GordoSmith

Junior Member

12-22-2011

In my honest opinion a jungler is not just juged by his successful ganks. Plenty of things matter, lane presence, attitude, awareness. Lets say a jungle comes into a down lane, harasses the enemy champions a little, maybe pushes a wave(Oh god not my precious cs!) It makes that lane a little more comfortable.-Lane pressence.
Lets say your top solo dies, loses his tower. The jungler proceedes to run to farm the lane madly and push it to the tower. This will in-turn, cause a behind player, to become even more behind. He doesn't run to farm, the solo top gets the whole 3-4 waves free farm, if the enemy top decides to roam(instead of defending a jungler push) Well we all know the outcome..

Regaurding not being a quick and efficient jungler with early ganks.. Use The Game. Get red, get ghost, easy level 2 ganks on over extended players. With the new lifesteal runes to add to his passive, he is very, very dangerous early.

Again, just my opinion.

Gordo Smith


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Darklarik

Senior Member

12-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLamentingLoon View Post
Bad junglers, i.e. they don't get jungling. Happened to a friend of mine just the other day who is a good player but was having issues on bottom. The jungler never showed despite periodic requests. It also didn't help that the rest of his team decided to go two top and one mid leaving him 1v2 up against Urgot and Taric. Why? No clue. Little wonder they lost.

There is a belief that with the way Riot has now designed jungling in Season 2 that many players who would not consider jungling prior are now doing so while failing to understand what it takes to fill this position.

It sounds though like you have a run of bad luck. I've been fortunate lately to play with some good junglers.
Maokai aint a jungler.... so i dont know why he even tries it....


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iblist

Senior Member

12-22-2011

Ok so I'm not gonna say I'm the best jungler to ever, but i do know the purpose of a jungler and will try to explain why your warwick didn't try to save your lane.

The first purpose is you have three champs in a solo lane, mid, top, and your jungler. So instead of having your mid at level 18 while everyone else is level 17 you have two, best case three, champs that are 18 and two that are 17.

The next purpose is warding the map early game. You might say to yourself "but isn't that the supports job?", well technically it's the whole teams job, but the jungler has the advantange of not having a lane to watchover. He can roam around the map popping down wards without having to worry about losing his turret.

And this is the thing that junglers are famous for. Ganks. Against a lane that's even a well preformed gank is usually enough to win that lane, and against a lane that's already winning it's devestating. Now if a lane is having a problems a gank can even the playing field, waste a summoner spell, or atleast inspire a little respect in your pushy lane opponet. But a lane that's fed? Unless the enemy is super out of position or really low on health there's not much a jungler can do. From us junglers, sorry we can't always be there

Also, warwick can't really gank till lvl 6. If you want early ganks you want shaco, lee sin, maokai (His early game ganks are pretty good) rammus, etc.

TLDR: Junglers aren't there just to gank for you, take care of your jungler and they will take care of you


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Loctorak

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Senior Member

12-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklarik View Post
Maokai aint a jungler.... so i dont know why he even tries it....
Can't tell if trolling or just don't know yet...


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Arlowne

Senior Member

12-22-2011

Wouldn't say I'm a very experienced Jungler (having only tried Trundle and Riven), but Jungling really is a thankless job with often times unforeseen nuances laners don't really grasp until they have played the role.

Here's what I can say: don't think of a jungler as a crutch. Jungler in general is a one-time wild-card akin to a summoner spell. Need to get a small lead in a stalemate? Call for a gank to deny your opponents a little or even force them to recall. Getting pushed out and denied? Call them over to get a little breathing room.

But remember that the jungler needs to be constantly jungling to maintain on an equal footing with duo lane exp. Times spent having to get to your lane is time not getting gold and exp for him, and his coming to help you is essentially him "giving" you a bit of his exp in return so that you may fare a little better.

This one time I was jungling as Trundle. Top and bottom were doing atrocious and constantly calling for covers and ganks, and so much so that at the end of the game I was severely underleveled. They then had the gall to wonder why I was so underleveled.

A jungler can't be everywhere at the same time. If you need help, ask nicely. In general if you're nice about it and you're not overextended they'll come over once they're done with the camp they're at, or they're done buying or whatnot. Don't ping repeatedly, only for them to come to your lane to find that you've pushed all the way to their tower.


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HotLamp

Member

12-23-2011

Most of the people in this thread are saying what I'm saying.

The last role that I had left to learn recently was to jungle efficiently. That being said I have played over 50 games jungling(which isn't a lot compared to my other duties) but in about a quarter of those games I will get asked why I'm not "ganking" a certain lane. 90% of the time its because they have fed too hard and me being unfed as well can not just storm in there and make a person that is fed die. It would take a lot of outplaying team wise which in solo queue doesn't happen that often.

The point is I can't spend my time on a lane hoping for a kill to hopefully even out the lane. I can cover it when I'm near there, but thats about it unless theres a really good opportunity. What people need to understand in that position is that they just need to hold out until later as I try and help feed other lanes that may be doing better than the lane that is falling behind. That way those lanes will be able to overpower the other team better in the team fights and we can be better suited to win in mid game.

Most people don't get that :|. Another personal complaint of mine is that people play too aggressively early game before they know the skill level of their opponents(then blame the jungler for later poor performance cause of the feed). When I'm down on bot or solo top my main focus is farming, not netting a kill. I mean I do harass but my mind set is farm wins games and a kill is just a bonus. The last few games I've had as an AD carry had me outfarming the other carry by a substantial margin because I was able to play smart, not give kills, and farm like a mad man. Eventually the farm let me kill bottom and push the tower as well as destroy the other team because my team mates were able to peel others off me as I just shot them over and over.

tl;dr - There's a lot of different views on how certain jobs work and they are not always the reality or the smartest view on how they actually work. People just like to blame others for their own poor performance to make them feel better even if say the other lanes are excelling because of the jungler or just better skill. The jungler also has more jobs than just ganking. He has other priorities that also help the team.


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Chauzuvoy

Senior Member

12-23-2011

I'm not going to claim to be a godlike jungler, but when I'm jungling, my priorities are less about helping you win your lane, and more about helping give my team as much as an advantage. Which leads to a complicated decision regarding ganks, simply because of the number of factors

1: If I try to gank and succeed, I give that lane and myself a big advantage
2: If I try and fail, then best case scenario I'm underleveled and less of an asset to my team. Worst case, the enemy lane now has a big advantage over mine, because they got a kill out of it, AND I'm underleveled.
3: If a lane is doing well, they don't need the gank, but doing so would likely be an easier kill. That means I can get the laner and myself fed, giving us a big advantage, with minimal risk. If I can get a gank on a lane that's doing well, I'll gladly do it. Relatively low risk, for a decent reward
4: If a lane is evenly matched, ganking can break the stalemate, and give my team a sizeable advantage advantage. These are nice to do, if I think I have a good chance at succeeding. Moderate risk for Moderate reward.
5: If a lane is having problems, but isn't feeding heavily, a gank might be successful (especially if the enemy if pushing to the tower), a bit less likely than an even lane, but with the numerical advantage, it's very possible. However, the reward for this is that I'm helping get a lane that was doing badly do a bit better. This is less of an advantage for my team than helping somebody else get fed and dominate, so I'm usually skeptical of ganking here. The laner can hold their own, not die, and keep their tower up, so it's going to be a question of holding them off until somebody else can crack a tower and help them in a larger capacity. Moderate risk, Mediocre reward. I'll cover for them to keep the tower up, I'll menace the lane a bit to ward off pressure, but I'm not going to go in for the kill as often.
6: If a lane is feeding a ton, then I'm not going to be able to get a successful gank unless they suddenly give the keyboard to somebody far more competent, and their opponent does something extremely stupid. And even if it is successful, I'm helping somebody against a far superior opponent. When I'm laning, and I'm forcing the enemy jungler to camp my lane, that's a win for my team. Likewise, if I'm jungling, and one lane just can't stop dying, I'm better off trying to get some other lane fed to heck and back to counteract it.
7: Also, assuming the enemy jungler is thinking a lot of the same things, I need to take that into account.

Also, unless the reason you're losing is consistent ganks from the enemy's jungler, or being in a 1v2 lane, or something else where you are at an inherent disadvantage from the start because of the lane setup (being outnumbered, playing somebody off-role (Trying to AP Soraka to cover a DC'd Annie, etc.)), then it's not the jungler's fault you lost your lane. It's yours.


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WryJester

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Senior Member

12-23-2011

Gank for kills. End of story.

Otherwise I got junglin' to do.


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Jlutin

Member

12-23-2011

Some players stink. Just saying. No amount of advice can help those jungling fools. They usually demand to jungle a 4th tier toon and ignore the teams advice to let a better toon do it.

When I jungle (mostly maoki) here is what I think...

First, are there any easy kills. E has pushed lane and health is under half. If so, I'll go help get those early kills.

Second, where are my carries (usually mid). Good players who have the potential to roll. That would be a burst character in a lane that is not pushed or has an almost dead opponent. Maybe just a lane that is in middle and my player is doing a good job. In that case, if I can pressure, the E will fall behind and that lane will start to roll.

Third, is a lane rolling? They don't need my help. Maybe if the E is stupidly hugging the tower without any health I'll consider a dive to get a kill.

Fourth, is a lane hopeless? Often if our player is an idiot and there is no hope i'll go gank other lanes. That will create our own carries and push the lane forcing our pushed lane opponents to leave to save a turret. Quite simply, if you are near death, the E has not lost any health and you are out of mana... tough luck, have fun. I might save your turret, but I am not going to blow half my mana because you are not playing well.


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7thcloud

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Senior Member

12-23-2011

judging by your post alone, it's pretty evident that you have never dedicated any serious amount of time to jungling. ganks are maybe the 4th or 5th on a jungler's priority list. and especially in the case of ww, it's a waste of time since his optimal paths do not have ganks until lvl 6.

if anything, why are there two melee heroes at bot lane? one of you should have been playing support and the other a ranged AD carry. that alone would have netted an early win in lane. second, the gragas has poke while their heroes do not. how are you losing that lane in general? jax & renek both need a lot of cs to be useful. jax is considered to be a weak laner. and yes, sometimes a jungler will help a lane that is losing, but for the most part, that is rare. and you are losing a match-up where composition is screwed. why waste time helping a lane that couldnt even correctly pick the right composition?


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