Denying with Gangplank

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Xenorun

Member

07-12-2010

Raise Morale is ridiculous currently. LoL has made this huge thing about how they intentionally removed Denying from their game, to promote a more aggressive play style, trying to get away from the endless turtle fests.

AND THEN THEY GIVE ONE CHARACTER THE ONLY DENY ABILITY IN THE GAME.

It is also HEAVILY abused. Like others have said, you get RM at level 1, stay near the spawn, and you can have 3 minions dead before the enemy even sees the creeps. That is huge. And its not as if all you get are those 3 creeps. You can KEEP denying throughout the entire laning phasing. Not only denying XP, but also gold.

I had an AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL game recently. We had this terribad WW (I did not know this at the time) and I was playing Shen on SR. I was the only one willing to 2v1, so I did. My team sucked btw. Anyways.. 8 minutes in, on the 2v1 lane, I was level 2. Pirate and Pantheon were level 5. Panth puppy guarded me, and kept me forced back at my tower. Pirate spammed RM. Also, they didnt auto attack at all. They would occasionally last hit, but did not focus on it. So.. Naturally.. MY CREEPS ADVANCED THE LANE. Yes, they were fighting on THEIR tower, while Panth had me pinned back near mine.

Due to Pirate using RM regularly, and Panth guarding me, and my team being worthless (despite constant QQing from me, not one team mate helped for those first 8-9 minutes) I was 100% shut down. It was BRUTAL.

I understand this situation is really severe, and surely not overly common.. But it does exist. And it is entirely because Pirate was denying. If he was unable to do so, at the VERY LEAST the creeps would've been roughly between the two towers. Then again, they were last hitting occasionally.. Giving an edge to their creeps. So, I imagine the creeps would be coming to me. However, with having the only deny in the game, they were able to destroy that lane. It was ridiculous.

In summation, RM should not be able to deny. Please.. SOMEHOW change the mechanics on this. Riot, you guys even said, as I stated above, that you didnt like denying as a whole, yet you somehow managed to allow it via 1 skill. What if instead of killing the unit, it dropped its damage by a growing %? Or movespeed by a growing %? Or armor, or MR, or a lot of these combined, etc. See what I'm getting at here? The same IDEA applies, with you hindering something beneficial, to give you and your allies a noticeable buff, without having a Deny mechanic.

Please, at the very least, take some consideration regarding this. As that one particular situation I was in, was easily the most frustrating situation I have ever been in regarding LoL.


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wildfire393

Senior Member

07-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenorun View Post
Raise Morale is ridiculous currently. LoL has made this huge thing about how they intentionally removed Denying from their game, to promote a more aggressive play style, trying to get away from the endless turtle fests.

AND THEN THEY GIVE ONE CHARACTER THE ONLY DENY ABILITY IN THE GAME.

It is also HEAVILY abused. Like others have said, you get RM at level 1, stay near the spawn, and you can have 3 minions dead before the enemy even sees the creeps. That is huge. And its not as if all you get are those 3 creeps. You can KEEP denying throughout the entire laning phasing. Not only denying XP, but also gold.

I had an AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL game recently. We had this terribad WW (I did not know this at the time) and I was playing Shen on SR. I was the only one willing to 2v1, so I did. My team sucked btw. Anyways.. 8 minutes in, on the 2v1 lane, I was level 2. Pirate and Pantheon were level 5. Panth puppy guarded me, and kept me forced back at my tower. Pirate spammed RM. Also, they didnt auto attack at all. They would occasionally last hit, but did not focus on it. So.. Naturally.. MY CREEPS ADVANCED THE LANE. Yes, they were fighting on THEIR tower, while Panth had me pinned back near mine.

Due to Pirate using RM regularly, and Panth guarding me, and my team being worthless (despite constant QQing from me, not one team mate helped for those first 8-9 minutes) I was 100% shut down. It was BRUTAL.

I understand this situation is really severe, and surely not overly common.. But it does exist. And it is entirely because Pirate was denying. If he was unable to do so, at the VERY LEAST the creeps would've been roughly between the two towers. Then again, they were last hitting occasionally.. Giving an edge to their creeps. So, I imagine the creeps would be coming to me. However, with having the only deny in the game, they were able to destroy that lane. It was ridiculous.

In summation, RM should not be able to deny. Please.. SOMEHOW change the mechanics on this. Riot, you guys even said, as I stated above, that you didnt like denying as a whole, yet you somehow managed to allow it via 1 skill. What if instead of killing the unit, it dropped its damage by a growing %? Or movespeed by a growing %? Or armor, or MR, or a lot of these combined, etc. See what I'm getting at here? The same IDEA applies, with you hindering something beneficial, to give you and your allies a noticeable buff, without having a Deny mechanic.

Please, at the very least, take some consideration regarding this. As that one particular situation I was in, was easily the most frustrating situation I have ever been in regarding LoL.
Outplayed.

Also, terrible team.

Anyone could have done this with about 80% of this effectiveness. Odds are by the time they pushed the minions to your tower through last hitting, they could be enough up on you that they could dive you and take your tower.


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Xenorun

Member

07-12-2010

Outplayed, yes. Like I said, my team was awful and I was in an very bad situation. I'm sure I could've done something better there myself. What that would've been, I dont know

I will disagree with you on that last part though. No, other set ups would not have worked THAT strongly. No where near. Like I said, the reason why they had such control, was BECAUSE of Raise Morale. Exclusively.

Agreed though, I got outplayed. That was very smart on their part, I am not arguing that. I am arguing the fact that what they did, is possible. It shouldnt be.


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wildfire393

Senior Member

07-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenorun View Post
Outplayed, yes. Like I said, my team was awful and I was in an very bad situation. I'm sure I could've done something better there myself. What that would've been, I dont know

I will disagree with you on that last part though. No, other set ups would not have worked THAT strongly. No where near. Like I said, the reason why they had such control, was BECAUSE of Raise Morale. Exclusively.

Agreed though, I got outplayed. That was very smart on their part, I am not arguing that. I am arguing the fact that what they did, is possible. It shouldnt be.
I've had games as Malphite + Kassadin (or anyone really) where I keep them pinned to their turret out of fear of my Shard (plus whatever my lanemate can do, and I dance behind their minion line and /taunt them until I get enough levels up on them and they get harassed enough (as Malphite's Shield + massive shard range lets him dive harass pretty easily) that I can ult in and grab a kill or double kill under the turret. Assuming my teammate isn't a braindead autoattacker, they get denied exp pretty much fully for several waves at a time, and then one hard push into their turret resets it. It may not be a full denial as it could be with raise morale, but it's 60-80% denial, especially considering the time they spend dead or b due to my harassment.


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Brontobeuf

Senior Member

07-12-2010

I do this a lot with my pirate.

I start at the fountain, with RM. I kill a cac mob (~60 xp), and a second one near the tower.
From here, two options.
If I'm good with my mana pool, I'll deny one creep per wave.
If I'm not good, I will only deny the canon (~100 xp).

If nobody kills nobody during the laning, I have 1 level of advantage. If we ever manage to get a kill, it turns bad for them, giving us 2 or even 3 lvl of advantage sometimes.

I tried +6% quint, but I gave up in favor of ArPen & Crit ones. I need my parrrley to hurt early.

Denying is awesome, and I think it's ok with one char able to do this only. :]


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CyanidePanda

Senior Member

07-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brontobeuf View Post
I do this a lot with my pirate.

I start at the fountain, with RM. I kill a cac mob (~60 xp), and a second one near the tower.
From here, two options.
If I'm good with my mana pool, I'll deny one creep per wave.
If I'm not good, I will only deny the canon (~100 xp).

If nobody kills nobody during the laning, I have 1 level of advantage. If we ever manage to get a kill, it turns bad for them, giving us 2 or even 3 lvl of advantage sometimes.

I tried +6% quint, but I gave up in favor of ArPen & Crit ones. I need my parrrley to hurt early.

Denying is awesome, and I think it's ok with one char able to do this only. :]
Of course you think its okay you play it...I've never had an issue with GP denying me to utter uselessness So I don't know even though the crit parrely's are stupidly annoying. But back to the subject. Having only ONE hero being able to deny isn't really fair I guess because how do you counter it? Nothing comes to mind.

Edit: Only thing I can see to fix it is make the killed creep pass its gold and exp to another creep. That way everythin stays roughly the same.


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wildfire393

Senior Member

07-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valentinebaby View Post
Of course you think its okay you play it...I've never had an issue with GP denying me to utter uselessness So I don't know even though the crit parrely's are stupidly annoying. But back to the subject. Having only ONE hero being able to deny isn't really fair I guess because how do you counter it? Nothing comes to mind.

Edit: Only thing I can see to fix it is make the killed creep pass its gold and exp to another creep. That way everythin stays roughly the same.
He can only do it once every 30 seconds (without CDR). And it costs him mana that he could otherwise save for more Parrrleys or Remove Scurveys. It's not like he can just deny every creep he feels like.


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Mrtakeiteasy

Member

07-12-2010

If you use raise morale on a creep right in front of the opponent, they will still gain the exp from you denying.

The right way to use it is to move back away from their exp range and deny the largest creep whether it be the melee creep or the cannon guy.


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svartingr

Senior Member

07-12-2010

I like how Gangplank gets +2 gold for offing his own minion.

Also:

I played a game where I tried this tactic today. It worked... until Kat got fed. (Not my fault.)

Unfortunately, the lack of Parrley made it harder to harass.


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HanzGruber

Senior Member

07-12-2010

I usually like to push hard and fight right under their turret. This has taught me both to keep a wary eye on my mini map and the value of wards. When I play Gangplank, I usually like to either deny the creep they're last hitting, or to take out the cannon creep if the turret is targeting it. My goal is simple, keep them from farming. If they want to move out from under that turret, don't let them without giving them lead poisoning.


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