@Riot TT needs your attention, TT should not be on the back burner any longer.

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Dviation

Senior Member

12-15-2011

Tryndamere is the least of our problems.

The worst are Udyr, Skarner and Shyv.


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Tactileneck

Senior Member

12-15-2011

I would disagree tbh =/ Udyr's damage output is average tbh, Skarner is rather brutal I'll be honest, and Shyv has a fast jungle clear, but if you counter jungle her or team gank her she can't do much about it


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ThaDean

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Senior Member

12-15-2011

@Tactile
Rebuttal of your argument.

@Jungle w/o Wriggle's.
What? W/o Wriggle's Jungling is pointless? That's like saying that a champion is useless without a certain item. Jungling wouldn't be pointless, it would just have less utility... WHICH IS WHAT RIOT TRIED TO DO ON SR LAST PATCH.

@ The TT -> SR idea.
There's a reason Summoner's Rift is balanced the way it is, just as there is a reason so few people play Twisted Treeline. What Ziggy is proposing is a series of changes that would modify TT, to both radicalize gameplay, and bring in a larger player base. You make the assumption that the "majority" of people on these forums play ranked, when Riot itself has admitted that the majority of its game is based on non-ranked gameplay, where champions are unbannable, which is why they need fixing. Banning is only a band-aid, to remove the symptoms of the issues, not a cure. But more on that later.

@Sunfire Cape.
Range is from 250-300. I haven't been able to confirm where in that range it is. But it's about double melee range for most champs... And since melee dps is the most popular and best choice on TT, and since Sunfire provides advantages for Melee DPS against Melee DPS, and since Sunfire doesn't benefit ANY OTHER CLASS besides offtanks (tanks built into offtanks count), it deserves removal.

@ your "1 hero" idea.
Banning a champ is not a solution. In fact, it means that there are some inherent balance issues with that champion, if if is banned nearly every game. The fact that you keep coming back to this point means that you cannot debate any of my other counterpoints, which means you concede the point.

In fact, out of the entirety of all of the games played in NA today, 12/15/11 (includes SR, Dom, and TT), Tryndamere is the most picked champion, picked by 4% of the general population, with a k/d of 1.33/1, and a win ratio of 1.45/1.
In matches where the average Elo of all players is >2000, he is the fourth most picked champion, and has a NA k/d ratio of 1.57/1, and a win ratio of 1.60/1
For the past two months, the average GLOBAL k/d ratio of Tryndamere has NEVER dropped below 1.2, in any given day.
And you say he's not overpowered?
Source:
http://www.lolstatistics.com/champions/all/3/12-15-2011

@ the annie point.
you didn't look up the link I posted, did you? The author even provides explanation to why certain champions are where they are. Morgana is so far up there because of the 4+ seconds of CC she brings to the table by level 11, in addition to a shield that renders all CC ineffective. While annie only has her burst, which does not nuke hard enough against tanky dps.

@ your jungle simile.
It is not logical. If Smite is removed, a champion could not have it. Thus, how can their lack of a spell relate to the nonsequiter of Garen taking a spell? And besides, Riot has previously said that they did not want to neccessitate a jungler in any situation, just make it a viable option. They tried to reinforce this by scaling down jungle exp and gold last patch, so that a jungler would be on par with a dual lane. And I already outlined why the whole dragon thing is toxic to gameplay: it dumps 1k onto a team, with no way for an enemy team to respond, especially to an early wriggles/smite. And like I said before, the wriggle's smite idea of gameplay is toxic to the game, because it provides the current atmosphere of god carries and bruiser supremacy.

And one final point: I am focusing on Tryndamere because he is the epitome of what is wrong with TT. I could focus on Lee Sin or Singed, but their problems are more enveloped in the inherent strength of their kit, and less of a problem with single item carrying.
Trynda is a symptom.


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Frosty716

Member

12-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaDean View Post
You are going to make me counter your points again...

CONSISTENT JUNGLERS EXIST WITHOUT WRIGGLES. Weird, I know, but true. Trynda/Xin/Udyr/Shaco/etc., can all jungle without Wriggles.... And it does not take much skill to know how to right click, or to know to get JITB/Turtle Stance. In fact, the only thing a removal of Wriggles would do is force longer jungle times.Those Tanky dps/Melee AD carries would still buy LS items... they would just change what item they got in what order. Removing Wriggles would prolong the game, thus allowing more and various types of champions to farm more and get more gold, changing the game from a "God-Carry, who can farm fastest" game, to something more approaching Summoner's Rift, where a person being farmed/fed is less of a "we lose" situation, and more of large pain to deal with.

Tryn being a normal ban in 3's is just a symptom of the larger problem, which is tanky dps's dominating Twisted Treeline. It's why every single Tier 1 and God tier champion besides Morgana is a tanky DPS of some sort, and why I proposed eliminating Sunfire. The thing is, Sunfire Cape doesn't seem so good... until you look at your death screen against one of the aforementioned Tanky DPS's, and you see that it did nearly 550 damage to you over your 30 second laning war, while giving your opponent resilience against your attacks, both in terms of health pool and damage negation.

But I'm glad you mentioned Tryndamere...
Riot has acknowledged that invulnerability is hard to balance, and in Trynda's case in 3's, impossible to completely balance. Infinity edge is the sole reason he's so powerful in 3's, as a good Trynd rushes it right after Wriggle's, and never needs to build any form of tankiness, as he always has his 5 seconds of invulnerability, his lifesteal from Wriggles, and his Q to fall back on.
REMOVING INFINITY EDGE REMOVES A LARGE PORTION OF TRYND'S OP PROBLEMS.
REMOVING WRIGGLE'S REMOVES ANOTHER LARGE PORTION OF TRYND'S OP PROBLEMS.
REMOVING BOTH NEARLY BALANCES HIM. (You can't balance invulnerability, or a 4 second 60% slow).

And as for your rebuttal of my argument:
Dodge boots are being removed shortly.
45 armor mitigates only 7-8% of a champions damage (if gotten early-mid game). Buying any armor at all lowers a champions damage output (Which is why Sunfire is so good- armor & hp actually boost your damage output), and effectively makes every champion besides tanks and tanky dps's less effective at their job than if they were to spend that money on some other item. And you said buying Wriggles helps counter IE? That's one of the reasons I would like Wriggle's removed. It does way too much for a 1600 item, and only exacerbates the farming problem that most casters have against the current TT meta.

As for your mention of Morgana:
That's why she's a tier 1 champion: she can actually farm, and her shield ignores CC. You really should look at the link I posted.

And finally, on Smite:
Lee doesn't need it. Udyr doesn't need it. Trynda doesn't need it. GP doesn't need it. Shaco doesn't need it. Warwick doesn't need it. Nunu doesn't need it. Junglers aren't "reliant on smite", for anything other than stealing 1,000 gold every 4-5 minutes by killing drag... And 1,000 gold for a single summoner spell on a 70 second cooldown every 4 minutes is OverPowered.
I'm gonna have to throw the red flag on this one, because Tryndamere and OP being used in the same sentence too much. Also, saying you don't need smite on your team is retarded, at least in ranked.

Also, everyone is talking about how Sunfire Cape is sooooo good, but in reality Frozen Heart is wayyyyy better.


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Tactileneck

Senior Member

12-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaDean View Post
@Tactile
Rebuttal of your argument.

@Jungle w/o Wriggle's.
What? W/o Wriggle's Jungling is pointless? That's like saying that a champion is useless without a certain item. Jungling wouldn't be pointless, it would just have less utility... WHICH IS WHAT RIOT TRIED TO DO ON SR LAST PATCH.

@ The TT -> SR idea.
There's a reason Summoner's Rift is balanced the way it is, just as there is a reason so few people play Twisted Treeline. What Ziggy is proposing is a series of changes that would modify TT, to both radicalize gameplay, and bring in a larger player base. You make the assumption that the "majority" of people on these forums play ranked, when Riot itself has admitted that the majority of its game is based on non-ranked gameplay, where champions are unbannable, which is why they need fixing. Banning is only a band-aid, to remove the symptoms of the issues, not a cure. But more on that later.

@Sunfire Cape.
Range is from 250-300. I haven't been able to confirm where in that range it is. But it's about double melee range for most champs... And since melee dps is the most popular and best choice on TT, and since Sunfire provides advantages for Melee DPS against Melee DPS, and since Sunfire doesn't benefit ANY OTHER CLASS besides offtanks (tanks built into offtanks count), it deserves removal.

@ your "1 hero" idea.
Banning a champ is not a solution. In fact, it means that there are some inherent balance issues with that champion, if if is banned nearly every game. The fact that you keep coming back to this point means that you cannot debate any of my other counterpoints, which means you concede the point.

In fact, out of the entirety of all of the games played in NA today, 12/15/11 (includes SR, Dom, and TT), Tryndamere is the most picked champion, picked by 4% of the general population, with a k/d of 1.33/1, and a win ratio of 1.45/1.
In matches where the average Elo of all players is >2000, he is the fourth most picked champion, and has a NA k/d ratio of 1.57/1, and a win ratio of 1.60/1
For the past two months, the average GLOBAL k/d ratio of Tryndamere has NEVER dropped below 1.2, in any given day.
And you say he's not overpowered?
Source:
http://www.lolstatistics.com/champions/all/3/12-15-2011

@ the annie point.
you didn't look up the link I posted, did you? The author even provides explanation to why certain champions are where they are. Morgana is so far up there because of the 4+ seconds of CC she brings to the table by level 11, in addition to a shield that renders all CC ineffective. While annie only has her burst, which does not nuke hard enough against tanky dps.

@ your jungle simile.
It is not logical. If Smite is removed, a champion could not have it. Thus, how can their lack of a spell relate to the nonsequiter of Garen taking a spell? And besides, Riot has previously said that they did not want to neccessitate a jungler in any situation, just make it a viable option. They tried to reinforce this by scaling down jungle exp and gold last patch, so that a jungler would be on par with a dual lane. And I already outlined why the whole dragon thing is toxic to gameplay: it dumps 1k onto a team, with no way for an enemy team to respond, especially to an early wriggles/smite. And like I said before, the wriggle's smite idea of gameplay is toxic to the game, because it provides the current atmosphere of god carries and bruiser supremacy.

And one final point: I am focusing on Tryndamere because he is the epitome of what is wrong with TT. I could focus on Lee Sin or Singed, but their problems are more enveloped in the inherent strength of their kit, and less of a problem with single item carrying.
Trynda is a symptom.
You're entire IE argument was based off Tryndamere, implying that Tryndamere is useless without IE...so you're argument on Wriggle's here is countered by your own statements. Jungling without Wriggle's is playing a caster without Rabadons, or playing a support without Gold per 5 items.

The game is based off balancing 5v5s, removing 3v3 items isn't the solution, the solution is support from Riot staff. Hero ability and damage is also based on 5v5, so comparing it to 3v3 items is apples to oranges.

Melee is commonly used on TT, but a team of 3 melee is about pointless. If you're not laning your caster against the bruiser with sunfire then you don't need to be playing this game at all, go play WoW. Sunfire benefits OT on TT as much as it does on SR, so you're pretty much QQing about a removal of an item from the entire game.

The majority of the population does not play ranked games, this is true, but if you havn't noticed the majority of the posts on this forum are for constructive ranked play.

Let's take a look at the major banned 5v5 champions, let me know if you notice a trend. Singed, Morgana, Vayne are some of the major common champions, should they be nerfed as well? Should we balance every champion so everybody can provide the same role? That's not how this game is intended to be played.

If your team has a smite and a jungler, and the enemy team has a smite and a jungler, it's balanced. Simply because you're too ignorant to allow any form of coutner jungling and you provide the enemy with free jungle all game doesn't mean that it should be fixed or removed. The changes to 5v5 jungling weren't done to 3v3 jungling were they? I don't believe they were. If your team did so much as buy a 75g ward that would prevent an 840 gold dragon and perhaps allow you to pick up some kills. The dragon's timer is consistent, it doesn't change, it's 5 minutes. Time that out, and take the advantage yourself.

My morgana argument was centered on the farm, not the CC.

Tryndamere is overpowered if you allow him to control you yes. Your argument about sub 2000 players is valid, but Tryndamere is so powerful in the lower Elos because the enemy team allows him to farm, allows him to control the map. This is once again why a jungler is viable. Most of tryndamere's farm comes from the jungle, if you've got a jungler to control the jungle Tryndamere won't be very far ahead. His stats are effective, and he's a good pick, but he's not the end all be all for decent players.


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Chzy

Senior Member

01-30-2012

I don't necessarily agree with all of the points here, but I do agree with the most important point. The map needs attention, and we lovers of the map would like to know if this is a realistic expectation or not.


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