@Riot TT needs your attention, TT should not be on the back burner any longer.

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Dviation

Senior Member

12-14-2011

Dear Riot,

Before I get started there are a couple of things I want to establish:

  • I am no pro, or game developer, simply an overly observant TT enthusiast.
  • I understand that Riot is a serious company aiming to please it's audience, but at the same time can't please everyone all at once so things get a bit hectic at times.
  • There is no reason what-so-ever to take my opinions seriously, because they are what I claim they are. Opinions. Nothing more.
  • I have over 1500 games played total, 1400 at the very least are TT. I leveled with TT and I play it daily.
  • I am no elitist, narcissist or rager and the only reason I'm hyper critical is because I want to enjoy an extremely fun map even more.

With that said, lets get started.

As of now, TT is a JOKE. I mean we can be honest here, spotlight's don't feature it anymore, it has nowhere near the player base as SR/Dom and the meta is pretty much littered by tanky dps with sustain. I have a few ideas that aren't by any means new, but I'll articulate them in a way that I think will represent anyone whom has had the discussion of the problems of TT with me.

The problems that I've noticed are as followed:
(I will elaborate why I see these as problems and what I think should be done afterwards)
  • 1. Flash summoner spell nerf
  • 2. Flash like mechanics
  • 3. Fountain Turret Kiting
  • 4. Turret damage is insignificant past mid game(7-8)
  • 5. Champion snowballing
  • 6. Item set is the same as SR's item set
  • 7. Jungle buffs are random
  • 8. Jungle creep spawns are random

Explanations and proposed fixes:
  • 1. Explanation: The flash nerf was completely unnecessary and a big hit to TT and it's meta. It further diminished the entertainment quality by forcing less evasiveness in champions who needed it and promoted more in your face, bruiser-like tanky dps fighters that take forever to kill. I personally didn't view anything wrong with flash, the problem in my eyes was flash mechanics on low cool downs. Those skills promote uninteresting and one sided game play that is just down right lame at times. It really can be a kill joy and I don't think the nerf gun was aimed in the right directions simply because of the evasiveness offered and at the same time having an imbalanced high reward, low risk system.
    Proposed fix: Revert flash to it's original state and refer down to 2nd explanation for further elaboration.
  • 2. Explanation: As said above, flash-like mechanics are just annoying and inconvenient if they are not counterable.
    Proposed fix: Add a few things to TT that makes game play a bit more balanced. For one, invisible walls that make jungle to base impossible(or vice versa), top to dragon impossible(or vice versa) and top to mid impossible(or vice versa). Two, make it so these invisible walls cannot be passed through by ANY champion ability. Only flash. This would do many things, for example, decrease the mobility of many problem champs, mix up the meta to where it needs to be, allowing mages to not be almost always out shined and lastly it would increase the safety of bot lane and top lane, allowing a much cleaner laning phase and requiring much more skill and teamwork for ganks.
  • 3. Explanation: This has always has been a problem because it's so discouraging to be pushing for a final turret kill and the last member alive, or the remaining two members alive on the enemy team, are able to gain minion aggro and kite the minions into the fountain turret, preserving the health of the nexus turret, while being untouchable because they have the ability to aggro minions while under the protection of the fountain turret.
    Proposed Fix: Scale the base so it's a bit larger, separate the fountain turret and nexus turret more and lastly adjust the minion's walk paths accordingly.
  • 4. Explanation: With tanky bruisers/fighters dominating the meta it's no surprise that turret damage is almost insignificant past mid game. The turret damage is just not sufficient enough to even out the risk/reward factors of diving in 2v1, 3v1 or 3v2. Also late game, turret defenses are just not enough to hold off a team of 3 after an ace, even without minion waves this makes late game ganking/team fighting overly rewarding compared to the risk taken. Most of the time teams have enough mobility to have one beefy champion tank, burst down a champion or two and then retreat to safety.
    Proposed fix: Adjust turret damage to scaling true damage throughout the game and give turrets increasingly scaling armor late game. Also adjust champion damage to turrets to reflect the stage of the game. (E.g. champions do -75% damage to turrets below level 6, champions do 50% less damage to turrets in levels 6-15, champions do 25% less damage to turrets in levels 16 and above)
  • 5. Explanation: Champion snowballing is really one key problem of TT, kills and the gold received from kills account for a lot more on TT compared to SR and Dom. This is no secret because TT is basically a farming war, though so is SR, snowballing is far worse on TT. If a person gets 2 levels ahead of you early game by winning a 1v1 and he/she plays his cards right, they can snowball rapidly while farming jungle, harassing lane and group ganking with teammates and there is nothing you can do about it.
    Proposed fix: See Proposed fix #6.
  • 6. Explanation: The item set of TT is shared with SR, this allows the meta of TT to be determined by the star fighters and bruisers of the SR meta. Plain and simple, when you give some champions items they snowball too harshly and can farm too easily. (E.g. Tryndamere with wriggles and IE, I'm not at Trynd hater, I'm not going to cry and call him OP, so calm down Trynd fan boys, just using him as an example because he's the most blatant scale champ.)
    Proposed fix: In my honest opinion I think TT should have it's own item set, even if it's only a list of specific items that are singled out from the item library as a whole, to be purchased in TT. The item set should be at least somewhat unique and promote more balanced gameplay and give summoners a better fighting chance against scale carries who become an unstoppable force after wriggles. This would also mix up the meta more allowing mages to be more viable in TT and finally changing up the whole bruisers or lose aspect of TT. (More specifically, less vamp/life steal, % scaling and crit damage scaling items. These tend to be the worst of the bruiser and snowballing problem.) Also games for the most part, end before people can complete builds, so this is another reason to give TT it's own item set, so people can build faster and keep up with the flow of faster game play that is TT.

    *****I'd like feedback for the above proposition, from anyone who agrees or disagrees. What would you guys like to see or not see? Discuss specific items. Tell Riot!*****
  • 7&8. Explanation: Everyone knows one of the biggest reasons why TT isn't as competitive as SR is the jungle isn't static. This is a HUGE problem, simply because there is no determination of what you'll get in the jungle, this also makes the xp gained based on route taken completely unpredictable. One more thing is that generally all buffs benefit melee more than casters, once again promoting the bruiser or lose play style of TT.
    Proposed fix: Completely revamp the jungle. Make both top creep camps spawn 2 golems for the entirety of the game, make the bottom creep camp spawn wolves throughout the entirety of the game, make blue side spawn white buff first and make purple side spawn green buff first and rotate each buff after the death of each camp, one more thing is to add blue buff in the rotation for mid spawn along with red. Promoting more mages in the meta and making mid a more important control point.

Whew, there we go. Those are all of my opinions and ideas that I could come up with based on the games played and players I've encountered. I know I'm not plat player or anything, but I shouldn't have to be for you guys to agree with me, as these are very blatant problems that have been around since the birth of LoL. I hope that you guys enjoyed reading and I really hope to get a red response because I'm eager to hear what the Red's think and I'm also anxious to hear if TT has the possibility of a bigger and more competitive community, with the help of Riot. Lastly, I'd like to thank Riot for being the cool developers that they are and listening to their community on major issues that do come up, as most companies don't do that. I really hope to that you guys take my opinions and ideas into consideration.

Also I'd like to thank the Reds for making a great game, I've enjoyed it so much and I hope to see it become progressively even more entertaining.

~Ziggy

Credits to Icedphenom for helping me articulate these propositions more clearly than I would have and for helping me come up with them.


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ThaDean

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Senior Member

12-14-2011

I like your ideas, and this champion tier-list of the current Twisted Treeline meta, made by a platinum ranked player, highlights why you suggested many of them:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1568877

All of the champions in the top two tiers (and god) either have amazing jungle clear speed, amazing burst, lots of CC, flashes/sustained speed boosts, high sustainability, or a combination of the above. Notice that the two god-tier champions have nearly all of the above.

Because of the current (and semi-permanent) meta, here is a list of items and a summoner spell that I think need banning in Twisted Treeline, in the same way that some items are banned for Dominion, and some summoner spells are banned for Summoner's Rift.

This list would include:

Wriggle's Lantern
Reason: Very quick jungle speed in Twisted Treeline makes champions overpowered, as they are able to decimate a wave, jungle, and return just as the next wave spawns- and this is the sole item that allows it. Wriggles also contains lifesteal, damage, armor, AND a free ward every 3 minutes. In Twisted Treeline, this is the most OverPowed item in the game. Seriously, if somebody on your team doesn't buy this, you lose, because the AD top-lane bruiser on the other team will have it.

Infinity Edge
Reason: there is no counter for critical strikes in Twisted Treeline and this is the most important/ damaging critical strike item in the game. For 3830, a champion with no previous critical strike chance, runes, or masteries gets an average of (80*2.5+80+80+ 80) = 440 extra damage every 4 hits. Apply this to any AD champion based around maximizing attack speed (Xin) or Critical %/Damage (Trynd) and the item becomes overpowered. Infinity Edge is the main reason why armor stacking on any champion besides Rammus is effectively useless. (Last Whisper is not included in this because it is not responsible for sterroiding a champion's direct damage output- champions need items for Last Whisper to be effective. That is not the case for Infinity Edge, which is why I would ban it)

Sunfire Cape
Reason: this item is made for tanky bruisers, and is the only tanking item they really need mid-game. It makes jungling much quicker, makes laning speedier, and is entirely useless for all other champion types.

Madred's Razors:
Reason: With Wriggle's gone, these would become the next go-to item, and the quick wriggles would turn into a quick razor into late-game Bloodrazor. Thus, the razors would need to go.


That is my list of banned items. There's only one Summoner Spell that I think needs to be deleted in Twisted Treeline:

Smite
Reason: It allows for quick dragon steals with no effort whatsoever by a single player (plant a ward by drag, smite from below it) or full-scale destruction of the enemy team during midgame (simply wait until one of their champs is low from killing drag, smite & steal, and immediately kill the weakened enemy with no loss of champion abilities from stealing the dragon, thus leading to a 2 to 3 for the enemy team, and an immediate (average) deficit of 1,265 gold for their team. Smite also leads to quicker jungle routes early-game, and is thus a must-pick for all top-lane bruisers or junglers.


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Dviation

Senior Member

12-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaDean View Post
I like your ideas, and this champion tier-list of the current Twisted Treeline meta, made by a platinum ranked player, highlights why you suggested many of them:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1568877

All of the champions in the top two tiers (and god) either have amazing jungle clear speed, amazing burst, lots of CC, flashes/sustained speed boosts, high sustainability, or a combination of the above. Notice that the two god-tier champions have nearly all of the above.

Because of the current (and semi-permanent) meta, here is a list of items and a summoner spell that I think need banning in Twisted Treeline, in the same way that some items are banned for Dominion, and some summoner spells are banned for Summoner's Rift.

This list would include:

Wriggle's Lantern
Reason: Very quick jungle speed in Twisted Treeline makes champions overpowered, as they are able to decimate a wave, jungle, and return just as the next wave spawns- and this is the sole item that allows it. Wriggles also contains lifesteal, damage, armor, AND a free ward every 3 minutes. In Twisted Treeline, this is the most OverPowed item in the game. Seriously, if somebody on your team doesn't buy this, you lose, because the AD top-lane bruiser on the other team will have it.

Infinity Edge
Reason: there is no counter for critical strikes in Twisted Treeline and this is the most important/ damaging critical strike item in the game. For 3830, a champion with no previous critical strike chance, runes, or masteries gets an average of (80*2.5+80+80+ 80) = 440 extra damage every 4 hits. Apply this to any AD champion based around maximizing attack speed (Xin) or Critical %/Damage (Trynd) and the item becomes overpowered. Infinity Edge is the main reason why armor stacking on any champion besides Rammus is effectively useless. (Last Whisper is not included in this because it is not responsible for sterroiding a champion's direct damage output- champions need items for Last Whisper to be effective. That is not the case for Infinity Edge, which is why I would ban it)

Sunfire Cape
Reason: this item is made for tanky bruisers, and is the only tanking item they really need mid-game. It makes jungling much quicker, makes laning speedier, and is entirely useless for all other champion types.

Madred's Razors:
Reason: With Wriggle's gone, these would become the next go-to item, and the quick wriggles would turn into a quick razor into late-game Bloodrazor. Thus, the razors would need to go.


That is my list of banned items. There's only one Summoner Spell that I think needs to be deleted in Twisted Treeline:

Smite
Reason: It allows for quick dragon steals with no effort whatsoever by a single player (plant a ward by drag, smite from below it) or full-scale destruction of the enemy team during midgame (simply wait until one of their champs is low from killing drag, smite & steal, and immediately kill the weakened enemy with no loss of champion abilities from stealing the dragon, thus leading to a 2 to 3 for the enemy team, and an immediate (average) deficit of 1,265 gold for their team. Smite also leads to quicker jungle routes early-game, and is thus a must-pick for all top-lane bruisers or junglers.
Not really sure about sunfire cape but the rest for sure could be done away with. I'm not a particular fan of hextech either. Scales too hard with the champs that can use it and is just ridiculous for sustain.


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Tactileneck

Senior Member

12-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaDean View Post
I like your ideas, and this champion tier-list of the current Twisted Treeline meta, made by a platinum ranked player, highlights why you suggested many of them:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1568877

All of the champions in the top two tiers (and god) either have amazing jungle clear speed, amazing burst, lots of CC, flashes/sustained speed boosts, high sustainability, or a combination of the above. Notice that the two god-tier champions have nearly all of the above.

Because of the current (and semi-permanent) meta, here is a list of items and a summoner spell that I think need banning in Twisted Treeline, in the same way that some items are banned for Dominion, and some summoner spells are banned for Summoner's Rift.

This list would include:

Wriggle's Lantern
Reason: Very quick jungle speed in Twisted Treeline makes champions overpowered, as they are able to decimate a wave, jungle, and return just as the next wave spawns- and this is the sole item that allows it. Wriggles also contains lifesteal, damage, armor, AND a free ward every 3 minutes. In Twisted Treeline, this is the most OverPowed item in the game. Seriously, if somebody on your team doesn't buy this, you lose, because the AD top-lane bruiser on the other team will have it.

Infinity Edge
Reason: there is no counter for critical strikes in Twisted Treeline and this is the most important/ damaging critical strike item in the game. For 3830, a champion with no previous critical strike chance, runes, or masteries gets an average of (80*2.5+80+80+ 80) = 440 extra damage every 4 hits. Apply this to any AD champion based around maximizing attack speed (Xin) or Critical %/Damage (Trynd) and the item becomes overpowered. Infinity Edge is the main reason why armor stacking on any champion besides Rammus is effectively useless. (Last Whisper is not included in this because it is not responsible for sterroiding a champion's direct damage output- champions need items for Last Whisper to be effective. That is not the case for Infinity Edge, which is why I would ban it)

Sunfire Cape
Reason: this item is made for tanky bruisers, and is the only tanking item they really need mid-game. It makes jungling much quicker, makes laning speedier, and is entirely useless for all other champion types.

Madred's Razors:
Reason: With Wriggle's gone, these would become the next go-to item, and the quick wriggles would turn into a quick razor into late-game Bloodrazor. Thus, the razors would need to go.


That is my list of banned items. There's only one Summoner Spell that I think needs to be deleted in Twisted Treeline:

Smite
Reason: It allows for quick dragon steals with no effort whatsoever by a single player (plant a ward by drag, smite from below it) or full-scale destruction of the enemy team during midgame (simply wait until one of their champs is low from killing drag, smite & steal, and immediately kill the weakened enemy with no loss of champion abilities from stealing the dragon, thus leading to a 2 to 3 for the enemy team, and an immediate (average) deficit of 1,265 gold for their team. Smite also leads to quicker jungle routes early-game, and is thus a must-pick for all top-lane bruisers or junglers.
Where to begin....
The removal of Wriggles? This is a common jungling item, and considering the high elo meta for TT includes jungling, removal of Wriggles would destroy the meta.

IE? The amount of gold required for this item sets back any player that knows the items that are necessary for TT. Considering the norm for TT's meta is based on bruisers or tankier heroes, getting IE fast is going to destroy you in a team fight, unless you're Trynd of course.

Sunfire, it's an alright item, but its costs for the its stats aren't very efficient, and the passive on it is close to garbage....if you're complaining about 40 damage passively there's a bigger issue.

Madreds. Once again, making jungling incredibly difficult...not exactly necessary to remove this item that's a core item in 3v3 considering the closely packed jungle. This is slightly turning into "Hey, let's take all the items out of 3v3!"

Smite, you're complaining about dragon steals, you shouldn't be at dragon if their jungler is close enough to smite steal, or even alive for that matter. If you don't have smite on your own team to take down the dragon when it hits that certain % to stop their jungle from smite stealing then you're bad off the start.


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Koldheartedjsp

Senior Member

12-15-2011

i don't like any of that

Twisted treeline is fun because its way different. as you get into higher level play players realize the jungle is the most vital part to winning the game so they do whatever they need to do to get an oppurtunity to go clear the jungle. Teams should go and attempt to gank or don't let teams push lanes if you know they're going to go jungling.


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M0NSTER HD

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Member

12-15-2011

unfortunately we care more than riot cares.


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ThaDean

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Senior Member

12-15-2011

@TactileNet:

About the removal of Wriggles:
Shaking up the meta would be the point, as all tanky bruiser DPS in Twisted Treeeline are overpowered compared to any other champion type, and Wriggles is the sole item responsible for that.

About the removal of IE:
In Twisted Treeline, this item becomes far too OP in the hands of a single character: Tyndamere. Because of his inherent stats, If he has a full ragebar, then he has an extra 35% chance of critting. And because of his q, if he ults and his q is at level 5, and he only has 1 hp, then he gains an extra 60 damage. Regardless, he gains 25 ad from a level 5 q. Now, if you work the Infinity Edge stats into this calculation, where Tryndamere has NO OTHER ITEMS, here's what happens:
Trynd with full Ragebar & full HP(105*2.5+105*2.5+105+105) = 770 average damage every 4 hits.
Trynd who ults and has full ragebar, 1 hp, and no other items. (140*2.5+140*2.5+140+140) = 980 average damage every 4 hits.

REAL GAME SITUATION:
Farmed level 14 Trynd who you have managed to force an ult from, you just ignited him while he is at 1 hp, he is now 1/2way through his ult, and is bashing in your head. He has slowed you with his W and spun in, (though he did not hit you with his spin,) and you can only get away after he has hit you four times. The only items he has are Wriggles and IE. Watch this:
Trynd's level 14 base damage is 104 (59.33 + 3.2*14)
Trynd's level 5 q & passive will give him 60 damage and 35% Crit chance
Wriggles gives him 23 AD.
IE gives him 80 AD.
104 + 23 + 60 + 80 = 267
(267*2.5+267*2.5+267+267) = 1869 damage. In 4 hits. While invulnerable.
And that is why Infinity Edge needs to go.

About the removal of Sunfire:
I'm not complaining about 40 damage, I'm complaining about 35 dps in an aoe radius that is done merely by standing there. If you rush Sunfire, you will get it about when the back minions have 400 hp, and the front minions have 525. Clearing an entire wave by standing there for 15 seconds seems a lil' too powerful... Add to that that the item is only useful for a single subset of characters who are already powerful on TT, and you see why I want it removed.

About the removal of Madred's:
If you don't see the reason behind Wriggle's removal, I really can't help you. Suffice to say that these two items enable early lane and jungle dominance, which leads to an inherent unbalancing of the teams, based on which one gets wriggle's/madred's first.

About the removal of Smite:
Try playing a TT game where your team doesn't have smite, and the enemy team does. I'm saying "Get rid of it" because it is a neccessity for any jungler/top-junglt to have in TT, and no Summoner spell should be a necessity for that many characters. It unbalances the game.


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Tactileneck

Senior Member

12-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaDean View Post
@TactileNet:

About the removal of Wriggles:
Shaking up the meta would be the point, as all tanky bruiser DPS in Twisted Treeeline are overpowered compared to any other champion type, and Wriggles is the sole item responsible for that.

About the removal of IE:
In Twisted Treeline, this item becomes far too OP in the hands of a single character: Tyndamere. Because of his inherent stats, If he has a full ragebar, then he has an extra 35% chance of critting. And because of his q, if he ults and his q is at level 5, and he only has 1 hp, then he gains an extra 60 damage. Regardless, he gains 25 ad from a level 5 q. Now, if you work the Infinity Edge stats into this calculation, where Tryndamere has NO OTHER ITEMS, here's what happens:
Trynd with full Ragebar & full HP(105*2.5+105*2.5+105+105) = 770 average damage every 4 hits.
Trynd who ults and has full ragebar, 1 hp, and no other items. (140*2.5+140*2.5+140+140) = 980 average damage every 4 hits.

REAL GAME SITUATION:
Farmed level 14 Trynd who you have managed to force an ult from, you just ignited him while he is at 1 hp, he is now 1/2way through his ult, and is bashing in your head. He has slowed you with his W and spun in, (though he did not hit you with his spin,) and you can only get away after he has hit you four times. The only items he has are Wriggles and IE. Watch this:
Trynd's level 14 base damage is 104 (59.33 + 3.2*14)
Trynd's level 5 q & passive will give him 60 damage and 35% Crit chance
Wriggles gives him 23 AD.
IE gives him 80 AD.
104 + 23 + 60 + 80 = 267
(267*2.5+267*2.5+267+267) = 1869 damage. In 4 hits. While invulnerable.
And that is why Infinity Edge needs to go.

About the removal of Sunfire:
I'm not complaining about 40 damage, I'm complaining about 35 dps in an aoe radius that is done merely by standing there. If you rush Sunfire, you will get it about when the back minions have 400 hp, and the front minions have 525. Clearing an entire wave by standing there for 15 seconds seems a lil' too powerful... Add to that that the item is only useful for a single subset of characters who are already powerful on TT, and you see why I want it removed.

About the removal of Madred's:
If you don't see the reason behind Wriggle's removal, I really can't help you. Suffice to say that these two items enable early lane and jungle dominance, which leads to an inherent unbalancing of the teams, based on which one gets wriggle's/madred's first.

About the removal of Smite:
Try playing a TT game where your team doesn't have smite, and the enemy team does. I'm saying "Get rid of it" because it is a neccessity for any jungler/top-junglt to have in TT, and no Summoner spell should be a necessity for that many characters. It unbalances the game.
Removing wriggles doesn't promote any form of legitimate gameplay. Jungling is difficult, it's not something you do your first game, it does take skill. Having a jungler on your team allows for more adverse game play, as opposed to the standard poorly decided mashup of lane parteners. Removing Wriggle's simply forces people into a new, far more poorly designed meta than having a consistent jungler.

IE's cost is outrageous....With the 3800 spent on it, a standard melee character could have Wriggle's, dodge boots, and a chain vest, which will just about cripple any melee that decides to rush IE, and let's face it, the melee is now super squishy and his damage is countered.

Tryn is a normal ban in 3v3, so basing all your stats and all your item removals on 1 hero is a poor decision on your part.

Removal of Sunfire, 35 damage in an AoE radius is pitiful. Congrats, you stand right next to a group of caster minions for 15 seconds to get a grand total of 60 gold for that 2.8k investment. If you're not harassing the person that's mindlessly standing there at the back of your minions there's another issue. 15 seconds to clear out a group with sunfire is entirely to long to make it even slightly viable...with Morgana at level 5 I can clear the entire back row of minions with my W alone.

Removal of Madreds, back to the entirety of jungling. If you don't have a jungler, and you're complaining about the enemy team having a jungler, that's your own fault. Assuming your team doesn't overextend and give out free kills to a jungler, the timing on madreds should be dead even, so 1 person having jungle dominance isn't realistic.

Removal of Smite, try playing a game where you don't have smite? I ensure that my team does have smite, it's common knowledge that it's incredibly useful in a 3v3 situation. "Junglers are reliant on smite" That's as black and white as saying "Casters are reliant on flash" Would you like that removed as well?


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ThaDean

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Senior Member

12-15-2011

You are going to make me counter your points again...

CONSISTENT JUNGLERS EXIST WITHOUT WRIGGLES. Weird, I know, but true. Trynda/Xin/Udyr/Shaco/etc., can all jungle without Wriggles.... And it does not take much skill to know how to right click, or to know to get JITB/Turtle Stance. In fact, the only thing a removal of Wriggles would do is force longer jungle times.Those Tanky dps/Melee AD carries would still buy LS items... they would just change what item they got in what order. Removing Wriggles would prolong the game, thus allowing more and various types of champions to farm more and get more gold, changing the game from a "God-Carry, who can farm fastest" game, to something more approaching Summoner's Rift, where a person being farmed/fed is less of a "we lose" situation, and more of large pain to deal with.

Tryn being a normal ban in 3's is just a symptom of the larger problem, which is tanky dps's dominating Twisted Treeline. It's why every single Tier 1 and God tier champion besides Morgana is a tanky DPS of some sort, and why I proposed eliminating Sunfire. The thing is, Sunfire Cape doesn't seem so good... until you look at your death screen against one of the aforementioned Tanky DPS's, and you see that it did nearly 550 damage to you over your 30 second laning war, while giving your opponent resilience against your attacks, both in terms of health pool and damage negation.

But I'm glad you mentioned Tryndamere...
Riot has acknowledged that invulnerability is hard to balance, and in Trynda's case in 3's, impossible to completely balance. Infinity edge is the sole reason he's so powerful in 3's, as a good Trynd rushes it right after Wriggle's, and never needs to build any form of tankiness, as he always has his 5 seconds of invulnerability, his lifesteal from Wriggles, and his Q to fall back on.
REMOVING INFINITY EDGE REMOVES A LARGE PORTION OF TRYND'S OP PROBLEMS.
REMOVING WRIGGLE'S REMOVES ANOTHER LARGE PORTION OF TRYND'S OP PROBLEMS.
REMOVING BOTH NEARLY BALANCES HIM. (You can't balance invulnerability, or a 4 second 60% slow).

And as for your rebuttal of my argument:
Dodge boots are being removed shortly.
45 armor mitigates only 7-8% of a champions damage (if gotten early-mid game). Buying any armor at all lowers a champions damage output (Which is why Sunfire is so good- armor & hp actually boost your damage output), and effectively makes every champion besides tanks and tanky dps's less effective at their job than if they were to spend that money on some other item. And you said buying Wriggles helps counter IE? That's one of the reasons I would like Wriggle's removed. It does way too much for a 1600 item, and only exacerbates the farming problem that most casters have against the current TT meta.

As for your mention of Morgana:
That's why she's a tier 1 champion: she can actually farm, and her shield ignores CC. You really should look at the link I posted.

And finally, on Smite:
Lee doesn't need it. Udyr doesn't need it. Trynda doesn't need it. GP doesn't need it. Shaco doesn't need it. Warwick doesn't need it. Nunu doesn't need it. Junglers aren't "reliant on smite", for anything other than stealing 1,000 gold every 4-5 minutes by killing drag... And 1,000 gold for a single summoner spell on a 70 second cooldown every 4 minutes is OverPowered.


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Tactileneck

Senior Member

12-15-2011

Jungling in 3s without wriggle's is just about pointless. The purpose of jungling is to provide 3 solo lanes of XP, with a jungler that has to take a good 45 seconds to kill 1 buff group, that's not going to happen. Can jungling be done without Wriggle's? Yes. Is it viable in any way? No.

If your argument on removing Wriggle's is based on turning TT into another SR, then go play SR, the dedicated TT players don't need a removal of items that are all QQ items on Tryndamere.

You're QQing about sunfire cape because you're letting them stand not half a unit away from you to let it do damage? Once again, there's a bigger issue.

Once again, you're balancing an entire map off 1 hero. Play ranked like the majority of the population on this forum, and Tryndamere can be banned, and your spew, along with everyone elses' about "AMG TRYN QQ I LET HIM FARM WHAT DO" Will be gone.

Annie's W can also clear out a minion wave at 7. She's not tier 1 is she?

No jungler NEEDS smite, but any jungler that goes without it might as well be laning. The main purpose of the jungler in 3v3 is to get that dragon to give your team an early advantage, getting rid of smite and jungling is about as practical as a Garen taking Clarity.


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