Why all the ap shacos?

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Epiphanyinc

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12-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wensha View Post
In a nutshell, AD shaco is sitautionally useful, whereas AP shaco is always useful.

AD Shaco is fantastic at killing squishies with no escapes, and is poor against tanky DPS and champs who do have escapes. He is a poor tanky DPS (I've tried, oh how i've tried to make it work), so you build him as a bursty, fragile melee carry (some combintion of IE/Triforce/other carry items). The big problem with that is, well, hes a melee that needs to use his escape to start the fight.

Great at killing people like malz, cassi, heimer, ashe, MF etc, but not so hot against some popular picks (rammus, yorick, Ez, Ryze, kass, Xin etc).
Shaco isn't a carry. He's an assassin


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Denambren

Senior Member

12-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epiphanyinc View Post
Its alright I have a video currently editing, it was a average performance 9/2/11, could have spent more time capping but I wanted to make sure yi didn't lose bottom for us like he almost did. At least our Kassadin was on fire! If I wasnt recording I would have been watching his gameplay O_O

Everyone on your team was destroying the enemy team in that match, including the Yi that you claim almost lost bottom and matched your score.

You played Shaco pretty well, though I think you can probably make much better videos to highlight what AD Shaco can do. That match was mostly a bot lane ownage video where your Shaco and my Master Yi were repeatedly killing the enemy and capping their bot. You stepped into bot lane after I opened with killing my lane opponent, so I'm not sure where the Yi almost losing bottom part comes from, but yeah. Feel free to edit your video to make your AD Shaco look like he saved the day under harsh circumstances.


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Epiphanyinc

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12-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denambren View Post
Everyone on your team was destroying the enemy team in that match, including the Yi that you claim almost lost bottom and matched your score.

You played Shaco pretty well, though I think you can probably make much better videos to highlight what AD Shaco can do. That match was mostly a bot lane ownage video where your Shaco and my Master Yi were repeatedly killing the enemy and capping their bot. You stepped into bot lane after I opened with killing my lane opponent, so I'm not sure where the Yi almost losing bottom part comes from, but yeah. Feel free to edit your video to make your AD Shaco look like he saved the day under harsh circumstances.
I'm not planning on editing it, Master Yi was competent with a teammate but I was kind of hoping someone else would take bottom lane so I could go on to greener pastures, which is why I plan to make more than one video. The video isn't to insult anyone on either team though my teammates played their characters differently than I would have. But thats what you get when you solo queue.

Sleepy Edit: Then I realized you was the Master Yi. Wasn't the best choice going bottom, but in the end worked out since no one appeared to be as cowardly as the pair of people I got before/after that match. Extremely rare to see a Kassadin do that good so early in the morning. Hmm your right I will need a better vid. Most of it is just us killing most people who run at us on bottom. My point remains about AD Shaco over the way the majority plays AP Shaco. This remains a team game and not a one man army sort of deal, but I always prefer a AD shaco having my back over AP


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Skeeep

Senior Member

12-12-2011

B/C they can do 2k damage with no skill required and there is no counter for it... you either face-check the box that you KNOW is there or you wait for minions to happen by, this is lose lose...


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Epiphanyinc

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12-12-2011

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Originally Posted by Skeeep View Post
B/C they can do 2k damage with no skill required and there is no counter for it... you either face-check the box that you KNOW is there or you wait for minions to happen by, this is lose lose...
I'd say AD Shaco is perfect counter to AP Shaco, When they have boxes stacked I just use ult and let clones walk through. What's he going to do? Melee me? I think not, he'll just wait for his box to cooldown and toss a dagger nuke.

Edit: In this case a AP Shaco could do the same thing, minus standing in they face and shanking them

Edit 2: Don't downvote denambren. He played very well compared to what you usually get out of a random team, at least he wasn't afraid to take risks. Though the way I stated things was quite offensive to his progress on the bottom lane. I try to think ahead when playing.


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Skeeep

Senior Member

12-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epiphanyinc View Post
I'd say AD Shaco is perfect counter to AP Shaco, When they have boxes stacked I just use ult and let clones walk through. What's he going to do? Melee me? I think not, he'll just wait for his box to cooldown and toss a dagger nuke.

Edit: In this case a AP Shaco could do the same thing, minus standing in they face and shanking them

Edit 2: Don't downvote denambren. He played very well compared to what you usually get out of a random team, at least he wasn't afraid to take risks. Though the way I stated things was quite offensive to his progress on the bottom lane. I try to think ahead when playing.
what if you don't like gimik characters or don't want to have to blow an ult every time you think there might be a nest of boxes around?


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Epiphanyinc

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12-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeeep View Post
what if you don't like gimik characters or don't want to have to blow an ult every time you think there might be a nest of boxes around?
The real counter to shaco's boxes without an ult facecheck is to have a long range like caitlyn around and someone with oracles. People tend to forget to buy that item when playing against Shacos. He IS a stealth character. Boxes included.

Edit: The counter for the bush stack = Don't go into a bush you know he has stacked boxes in, He won't engage you away from it, and will just waste time trying to lead you to it. If they are on a turret in dominion you WILL see them with oracles and be able to take them out if his whole team isn't like standing there too, if they are its time to move to another target. P.S. Oracles (not many people buy but its WORTH IT!)


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Psi21

Senior Member

12-12-2011

AP Shaco player here. I have been one way before Dominion and Play in SR as him from time to time.

A. At level 4 with two points into Shiv with AP shaco when attacking top and with ignite exhausted...
My Shiv does about 223 Damage (Note: with Shaco passive)

http://leaguecraft.com/builder/Shaco/?items=86,54&runes=117,117,117,117,117,117,117,117 ,117,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,15,15,15,15,15,15, 15,15,15,91,91,91&masteries=1340040201300434100000 000000000000000000000000000&level=4

You will need to go to abilities tab using second point in shiv to reference it.

B. AP Shaco and AD Shaco both provide land mines in the jungle. To a player building MR these don't mean a thing. But to a Squishie caster they hurt a lot.
One of the biggest reasons Shaco provides so much power to his team is the disruptions from getting to a point and site wards. If you boxes do more damage you hurt that squishy that much more.

C. AP Shaco can do more damage to a single target carry in burst damage from the beginning of the game to end using the right attacks. Where as AD Shaco you need the items and sometimes the clone for this. And the big factor here is a lot more players build Armor than they build MR on dominion.

D. AP Shaco can get the same high crits as AD Shaco gets. It is strange but true. And whats worse it doesn't have to be with Lichbane.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1443904

E. With the information in letter D. You then see that each Shaco can use all of their abilities. While AD Shaco's auto attacks are more damage AP Shaco's Jitbs do more damage. While AD Shaco's clone's auto attack are more damaging; AP Shaco's clone explosion does more damage. etc... But AP Shaco gets one more thing that AD Shaco doesn't. That is Deathfire Grasps. With every 100 more AP it does more percent total damage. At end game AD Shaco can 3 hit Carries just as easily as AP Shaco can 3 hit Carries with DFG + Deceive (auto-crit) + Shiv

F. AP Shaco offers better Node defense when Top is taken... unless the team knows what to do.

There are more reason to the thread but I have work. Talk about it more later. If you can play Shaco well AP can really do a lot more.


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lbgsloan

Senior Member

12-12-2011

AP Shaco is strong vs *******. AD is strong period, but requires far more skill to use and thus nobody plays him.


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Epiphanyinc

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12-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi21 View Post
AP Shaco player here. I have been one way before Dominion and Play in SR as him from time to time.

A. At level 4 with two points into Shiv with AP shaco when attacking top and with ignite exhausted...
My Shiv does about 223 Damage (Note: with Shaco passive)

http://leaguecraft.com/builder/Shaco/?items=86,54&runes=117,117,117,117,117,117,117,117 ,117,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,15,15,15,15,15,15, 15,15,15,91,91,91&masteries=1340040201300434100000 000000000000000000000000000&level=4

You will need to go to abilities tab using second point in shiv to reference it.

B. AP Shaco and AD Shaco both provide land mines in the jungle. To a player building MR these don't mean a thing. But to a Squishie caster they hurt a lot.
One of the biggest reasons Shaco provides so much power to his team is the disruptions from getting to a point and site wards. If you boxes do more damage you hurt that squishy that much more.

C. AP Shaco can do more damage to a single target carry in burst damage from the beginning of the game to end using the right attacks. Where as AD Shaco you need the items and sometimes the clone for this. And the big factor here is a lot more players build Armor than they build MR on dominion.

D. AP Shaco can get the same high crits as AD Shaco gets. It is strange but true. And whats worse it doesn't have to be with Lichbane.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1443904

E. With the information in letter D. You then see that each Shaco can use all of their abilities. While AD Shaco's auto attacks are more damage AP Shaco's Jitbs do more damage. While AD Shaco's clone's auto attack are more damaging; AP Shaco's clone explosion does more damage. etc... But AP Shaco gets one more thing that AD Shaco doesn't. That is Deathfire Grasps. With every 100 more AP it does more percent total damage. At end game AD Shaco can 3 hit Carries just as easily as AP Shaco can 3 hit Carries with DFG + Deceive (auto-crit) + Shiv

F. AP Shaco offers better Node defense when Top is taken... unless the team knows what to do.

There are more reason to the thread but I have work. Talk about it more later. If you can play Shaco well AP can really do a lot more.
These are all real good points, but a ranged with oracles removes boxes from both AD and AP's possibilities where as AD usually puts a box behind the person they attack to fear them so they get more hits in. Though you realize most AP Shaco's you'll get randomly dont ever get deathfire grasp and think their soul purpose is to hide behind boxes and do nothing. I have only encountered less than 10 "good" AP Shacos since I started last December. Just to not seem biased I will mix in some AP Shaco matches with my AD matches, mixing up the builds for AP a bit to make up for the (didn't get to pick Shaco rounds in my match history) I swear some people must have him on auto lock in.

(The aim of what I'm talking about is dominion though, theres just too many people who do horrible with AP that say AD is not viable at all.)