Udyr: stance-dancing and items

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Shawn Ogg

Member

07-07-2010

Jungling was another thing i have many doubts about.
What summoner spell should i get?
What items?
On what order should i kill the creeps?
When should i return to base?

And about Bloodrazor, it does magic damage (and so do the phoenix stance), then: is it a good idea to pick Haunting Guise/Sorcerer's Shoes along with it?


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Twigg

Senior Member

07-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Ogg View Post
Jungling was another thing i have many doubts about.
What summoner spell should i get?
What items?
On what order should i kill the creeps?
When should i return to base?

And about Bloodrazor, it does magic damage (and so do the phoenix stance), then: is it a good idea to pick Haunting Guise/Sorcerer's Shoes along with it?
Spells : Smite and cleanse

Golem first, then golem side creeps. After that it's up to you. VERY IMPORTANT : Get the % duration increase for neutral buffs.

Items : Omen, Rageblade, RoA, Sunfire cape (ONE), Banshee's veil, Phantom dancer, Frozen Mallet, Aegis of the legion are all very solid items on him. (That was NOT a build, just some recommended items)


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Iron Testes

Member

07-07-2010

For jungle, i think smite is unnecessary on any jungle toon. You should not need it, and having it gimps your ability to gank/escape, thus hurting you mid to end game. Assuming you are level 30, cloth armor and 5 pots should be all you need. I do non buff creep spawns first, then golem at 2, hitting lvl 3 as i kill the little ones. Takes you slightly longer, but you will be way more effective throughout the rest of the game. I sometimes wait on killing red rune and re clear non buff spawns fist, then finish with red before i buy. I gank at 5, usually with 3 ranks turtle, and one each of bear and phoenix. With ghost up its about a 90% success rate.

As far as items, i have said it once, and ill say it again. Making Udyr without mandreds is foolish. There is NEVER a point to not including that in a build. Its fantastic for jungling before its finished. Its the best dps item late game. And the dmg is good regardless of stance. Your survivability both in team fights and in laning is abusing turtle stance. That item allows you to keep decent dps, even in arguably your worst dps stance. ( often late game i never even use phoenix unless im clearing minions, and i still drop people with ease because your AS gets so high.)


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Pwnacus Maximus

Senior Member

07-07-2010

@ shawn i can answer all of your questions since you've already decided on stacking AD to abuse tiger stance.
Simply look Here.

EDIT: i also concur with the smite being unneccesary, not only is it superfluous it leads to you getting ganked in the jungle if your enemies are smart, leaving you underleveled and giving them a good bit of gold.


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Sunrah

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Member

07-07-2010

Iron Testes: with your 50/50 recent track record on Udyr and a grand total of less than 23 wins with him, I would say you are far from an expert on the best way to play Udyr. The way you build him may work Okay for pub stomping, but there are other successful ways to play him in a 5 man pre-made.

Udyr is very versatile, and there are many ways to be successful with him, but I find his role changing during the course of the game. For me, the single biggest factor in deciding how to play Udyr in any particular game is the opponent's line up. Lately, I have been seeing a lot of Amumu, Fiddle, Kat style AOE teams. When I see that, I know that I need to build very tanky because with my repeatable stun, I can cancel 2-3 channeled ults in a team fight. Another thing about Udyr is that he is arguably the best solo pusher in the game once you hit mid/late game. This is because you clear creep waves really fast, slice thorugh towers like they are paper, and it will take at least two of the opposing team to deal with your solo push. This means somewhere else on the map you have a mismatch that you can exploit. If you build an Omen and take Ghost you are practically uncatchable when you decide to retreat.

Smite is actually very useful all game contrary to what some people think, but it is eesential to getting off to a really fast start. If you take smite and red elixer, you can clear all 5 friendly side creep camps before the 4:00 mark. Recall to base, buy boots and go for a gank with speed, red buff, blue buff, and red pot. This gank is very difficult to defend against. Really the only thing you can do to stop it is to not be very far from your tower. If the opponent's are tower hugging, just buy vamp sceptor, and a few more pots and kill the drogon before 5:15.

I have literally played hundreds of games as Udyr. I have messed around with DPS builds, move speed builds, attack speed builds, and I have even tried AP/hybrid builds, but in my opinion, the best two opening items for nearly every game are Merc Treads and Randuin's Omen, and from there it is almost always best to build tanky items. After the first two items, I usually go veil, sunfire, or force or nature. I build veil for teams that have a Blitz or an Ashe or some other nasty initiating CC. Force of Nature is good against heavy mage teams that have anivias or other annoying continuous slows. Sunfire is good against physical DPS teams and it makes you an even better solo pusher/counter pusher. If the game is still going after Treads, Omen, and third item, I general build a brutalizer for some attack damage and armor penetration. Games are almost always over at that point, but if not, I just keep stacking damage for late game.


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Iron Testes

Member

07-08-2010

sunrah

I have two accounts, one for pub, one for 5 man. I thought most people did. Lately i been on pub messing with all sorts of build orders, skill orders, lane variations, and jungle variations to prepare for season 1.

I also agree with EVERYTHING you said on Udyr. I didnt take the time to explain everything i know on Udyr, simply what i found to be the best items and skill variations. I stick buy what i said about mandreds however. I find it to be extremely useful, regardless of build. The damage is just too nice with your naturally high AS. And even as a tank, i feel its important to be somewhat of a dps threat.

Im still not a fan of smite, as i find cleanse and ghost to be the best combo in all situations for a melee dps/tank. It might be that i have come to rely on that combo, especially because im always looking to successfully tower dive, to really consider other summoner abilities. So lets just say i have a natural bias towards my own play style, and leave it at that.

I as well make merc treads in every game, as i find faster boots, as well as AS boots to be overkill given he can increase these both naturally. MY only variation is tabi, if they are heavy pys dps. My first item is always a mandreds bloodrazor in a 5 man. Pub i will vary it now and again, but typically not. I can farm much better with razor than i can with anything else, and after that creeping is a breeze. Even if i were to go full tank, i would finish the razor first, and then eventually upgrade to bloodrazor late game.

The tank items you make are also identical to mine, with the exception of a thornmail. I usually make that for pys defense as opposed to sunfire. Force of nature is almost always my second item after boots and bloodrazor. I find that magic opponents are typically my only threat unless an opposing dps is fed, and the speed increase is godly on Udyr.

All in all, we actually agree like 90%. I just didnt go that in depth in every area. You should prob refrain from calling people out. You can always add without insulting..

Since you play him a lot, what are your thoughts on tiger. For pure dps and hybrid dps/tank builds, i have been using it more and more. Im actually finding it to have way more merit than i initially thought it did, and im starting to prefer it to phoenix. It may be because i almost always have razor, so i dont really need phoenix to farm. Anyway, interested in your thoughts if you have any.


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Nyagamun

Member

07-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Ogg View Post
snip
your math seems over-complicated and way off...even if the 130% attack damage were to apply every hit(doesn't), it still doesn't make sense how madreds bloodrazor does HALF the damage of trinity force, unless for trinity force you're adding in tiger's active, and not for any of the other items


in addition trinity force doesn't at all interact with tiger active, neither does sheen and in fact is semi-bugged with tiger stance (though might be working as intended) to split the bonus damage into three and the ONLY apply on the first hit of your tri-hit

over the course of a minute assuming 1.5 base atsp

BR(1.9attacks per second over 60 seconds)=114 attacks
TF(1.75attacks per second over 60 seconds)=105 attacks
IE(1.5attacks per second over 60 seconds)=90 attacks

let's throw in only tigers active to give IE a fighting chance (not splitting the attacks for simplicity's sake)...this will happen 10 times in this 60 seconds

BF(111+30 damage)=(141x3)x10=4230
TF(111+20 damage)=(131x3)x10=3930
IE(111+80 damage)=(191x3)x10=5730

now for regular hits

BR(114 attacks at 141 AD)=16074
TF(92 attacks don't crit at 131, 13 do at 262)= 12052+3406=15458
IE(72 attacks don't crit at 191, 18 do at 478)= 13752+8595=22347

now for the procs, let's assume triforce magically procs itself for full damage (instead of the 1/3 damage in tiger) every three seconds (20 procs) and assume 2k life for BR (80 damage proc...tiger doesn't work properly with regular razor, but DOES proc full damage for bloodrazor in game)

BR(114 procs for 80 damage each)=9120
TF(111x1.3=144.3 each proc...over 20 procs)=2886
IE=

sooooo

BR=4230+16074+9120=29424
TF=3930+15458+2886=22274
IE=5730+22347= 28077
blood thirster+2long sword=20790+6930=27720


keep in mind that the damage number for trinity force is actually upscaled a bit...EVEN assuming that you can proc TF every second, over all damage still stays at 28028 which is still under IE...

so over the course of a minute, BR pulls ahead in every situation, and trinity force gets left WAY behind even with numbers completely skewed in it's favor...however keep in mind that BR will also be mitigated by magic, bringing the overall damage down 2-4k...but it's also the cheapest of the three, and scales heavily with enemy health...

I randomly threw in bloodthirster with 2 long swords (cost equivalent of other items) and it does a nice job considering you're also getting the lifesteal...and assuming it's at max (not too hard with udyr...though dying makes it very inneffective, obviously)


TLDR; moral of the story, trinity force is really nice for burst in a phoenix DPS build, especially if procing it with bear early, then immediately switching to pheonix after stun for a second proc for a quick 300ish damage, but should never be considered in a tiger build due to bugs and over all terrible synergy with the ability (crit does nothing for active, adds little damage) while bloodrazor synergizes well with tiger's HUGE natural attack speed bonus, but also really shines when your opponents HP is above 2k (should probably be a second item)...

thoughts on tiger: people sleep on tiger stance udyr, 70% attack speed is HUGE, so is a 3xAD activate...I think if any other character had it, people would cry nerf


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Slizzz

Junior Member

06-28-2011

I don't care what anyone says, Udyr is awesome, I've solo'd baron a few times with him. Yea buddy


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