Udyr: stance-dancing and items

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Shawn Ogg

Member

07-06-2010

I've recently purchased Udyr and I'm having problems on using and building him properly. I've been looking into guides (there arent many) but there are some things i dont understand abour what I've found.

Every single guide tells you to stance-dance so all the stances actives procs but... what about the passives?? If you stance dance continuosly then:
->You wont have the tiger AS/AD 1/3 of the time
->Phoenix passive would hardly proc
->The lifesteel from turtle passive wont help much for the attacks you do before changing again to another stance

So while stance dancing the only passive that do something is the one from the bear stance.

Then in fights you can only count on actives so if you auto-attack while stance-dancing you will have every 6 sec aprox:
-> one 3xAD attack
-> one 1sec stun
-> 220 hp shield
-> Some aoe damage (phoenix)

Not even all because you wont be cilyng through all but most of the time through only three of the stances.


Taking this in consideration most of the item builds i see in guides does not make sense to me. I see two kind of builds: tank and dps.

->Tank: i dont see why build Udyr as a tank watching these skills. He barely has 300 hp and 5 armor more than ryze for example. Neither he has the skills or the stats for a tank. You can tank with him with a proper item build, i just dont see why.

->DPS: It makes more sense. It has for example more skills while fighting than for example teemo who only has blind (although he is ranged an can always put a mushroom into the melee). But in these guides there's hardly any item different from bloodrazor, trinity and stark fervor. Not a phantom dancer nor an infinity edge.

I dont see why these items;
->Bloodrazor: its a good item but extremly expensive, and an infity edge would sinergize better with the tiger stance active.
->Trinity: extremely expensive. You wont really need some of the bonus it grants. Its true it makes an attack hit 130% harder avery 1sec but with all the money spent in this you wont have nearly any more money to boost AD. On the other side if you have AD items, you wont have that attack but you would be hitting harder every attack and the tiger stance active would be much more powerful. Maybe some calculations are needed to see what would be better.

On the other hand, while in the turtle stance you cannot crit so 1/3 of the time the crit bonuses from items like phantom dancer or infinity edge are useless.

Some other builds also have the inerv locket, but i found it usefulness quiet limited out of the laning phase.


What do you think of all this? Does an Udyr tank makes sense? What build would you make? What items would you take?


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Enfillyon

Senior Member

07-06-2010

interesting arguments
i also bought him yesterday and was wondering where to go with udyr

from the game i played i fit an off-tankish dps role but i had no idea what to build on him

i hit 3k-ish hp with just a locket and tri force and after those two i didnt know what to build, and after that, the game ended anyway

from that one game though, udyr is one beast of a gank machine who can turtle/bear dance all the way back to base when hes low on health, it was hilarious and i think im gonna start playing him more often

i think the part i enjoyed most was stance dancing from 100 health back to full after a team fight using the locket. out of all the champions in the game i think ive had the most fun with him


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Saavedra

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Senior Member

07-06-2010

I think you stance dance to take advantage of his passive, and let's face it, the actives are generally better than the passives anyway. Generally you would start with bear, hit tiger for some extra damage, then end in phoenix. With your attack speed items, you should be able to get your hits off fast enough to proc phoenix's passive before your passive buffs run out, so then you go back into bear as soon as the 3 seconds are up and do it all again.

Most people maximize dps with Udyr this way by going attack speed, ap, and some form of mana regen (locket?) to get the most damage out of their phoenix stance.


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Shawn Ogg

Member

07-07-2010

I decided to do some calculations (simple way, nothing too complicate and just aprox). Here i calculate the total damage done on a complete cycle (bear, tiger, phoenix) supossing both bear and phoenix are at maximum lvl:

TIger: 3xAD
Phoenix: 335 + 1.25xAP (Active)

To this you add the damage from auto-attack but: is it better to stay in phoenix or tiger stance?

In tiger stance: aprox (ASx1.7x4 + ASx2)xAD = ADxASx8.8 (phoenix doesnt proc)
In phoenix stance: (200 + 0.25xAP)xProcs + ADx(ASx1.7 + ASx5) aprox ASx(200 +0.25AP + ADx6.7)

(Procs = Time in phoenix stance x AS/ 4)

To do the same damage:
ADx2.1 = 200 + 0.25 AP => aprox AD = 100 + 0.125xAP)

so at the moment AD is greater than 100 (wich Udyr has at lvl 18) is better to stay in tiger stance most of the time while dancing.


Then the total damage is:

3xAD + 335 + 1.25xAP + ADxASx8.8 = 335 + 1.25xAP + ADx(3 + 8.8xAS)

So i found stacking AD much more better than AP.


What about items?:
(here AS is the average value between all stances)

Bloodrazor: (AD + 30 + 0.04HP)xASX1,4
Trinity: aprox (AD + 20)xASx1.25 + 3x2.3xAD - 3xAD (three normal attacks are sustituted by the powerful ones) = ADx(ASx1.25 + 3.9) + 25xAS (plus 12% crits)
Infinity: (AD + 80)xAS = ADxAS + 80xAS (plus 20% crtis)

for a AS of 1.5:
B: ADx2.1 + 63 + 0.084HP = aprox ADx2.1 + 80-90
T: ADx5.775 + 37.5
I: ADx1.5 + 120

at lvl 18 Udyr base AD is 111 so:
B: aprox 320
T: aprox 680
I: aprox 290

It does not count crits. With crits Inifinty gets better than bloodrazor but still Trinity seems to be the best option.

So the item build:
-Boots
-Trinity Force

then you'll need more AS so
-Malady/ Last Whisper/ Stark fervor / Ghostblade

and then AD:
-Infinity/ Bloodthirsty / Black Cleaver / Sword of the occult

Taking in consideration the long of the game, the best options are:
-Boots, Trinity, Ghostblade or stark fervor, Occult
-Boots, Triniity, Malady, any but infinity
-Boots, Trinity, Last Whisper, Bloddthirsty or Occult


What do you think?


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MindGamez

Senior Member

07-07-2010

You are somewhat confused. Stance Dancing between Turtle, Bear, and Phoenix is the best way.

Phoenix will only proc at most twice before you can switch stances.

I don't like Tiger since I find Phoenix AoE and Proc do a lot more dps considering that in a real game we are not fighting a sitting duck.

We are chasing / fighting an entire team. Remember that Phoenix does dmg to the entire team and not just a single target. So the dmg potential is much higher than tiger stance.

Udyr Stance Dances so that he can have all 3 stacks of the passive buff at all times.


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lLee Sin Pls

Senior Member

07-07-2010

After some odd 300 games I've yet to see a good Udyr.


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Iron Testes

Member

07-07-2010

I play udyr quite a bit and win about 80% of my games with him. All i can say is Mandreds Bloodrazor, and abuse turtle stance. The razor is my first item, and i usually 2 v 1 a side lane with our premades. With that you can farm easy while pretty much just spamming turtle stance. Doing this you are a god in laning phase. I buy the cloth armor and five pots off the bat. The pots basically allow me to heal until im level 5 and can start to abuse turtle without running out of mana.

After that you are best just getting basic DPS or tank items depending on need. I almost always make a wits end as well at some point. Not only does that also allow you do deal extra dmg in turtle, but it also is kind of a form of mild cc ( mana depravation ), and allows you to rape mana dependant carrys like jax, as well as mana dependent tanks like cho, rammus, and scion. Sword of the divine is also an ok bet, again because its supplemental dmg that you dont need AD for. I pump out some nasty damage during all phases of the game, but rarely get over 150 AD.

Make sure in team fights you are using turtle every time its up to refresh the shield. Other than that i just keep to turtle and bear, trying to alternate stuns on the team. If you see an opportunity to burst a target, just switch to phoenix/bear till they dead. Tiger is useless for anything other than tower killing imo.


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Wilczak

Senior Member

07-07-2010

Is innervating locket after nerf still good for udyr?

And can someone give me a link to good udyr guide?


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Dustbin

Senior Member

07-07-2010

Udyr really isn't a great laner, he is one of the best junglers though, and can kill most enemy junglers you will meet.


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IS118d1c68b944ead659909

Senior Member

07-07-2010

Hextech gunblade is good item, when you don't use Tiger in early game.


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