The only way to truly balance shaco is to make his clone only for confusion...

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LionHearT

Senior Member

07-02-2010

I think that Deceive is what makes him so good. The ability should be an invi or a blink, not both.


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SlyGoat

Member

07-02-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson Rose View Post
i believe the damage of his clone should get reduced.

in DotA, most illusions used to do 40% damage max if im not mistaken (chaos knight, mercurial).
Chaos Knight's illusions did 100% damage. And he got 3 of them.

However, in DotA illusions only got hitpoint, mana, and attribute bonuses from items (attributes being intelligence, strength and agility, which was a different stat system than LoL uses that I won't bother explaining), and didn't receive direct attack speed or damage increases. They could also only apply mana burn on-hit IIRC, no other orb effects.


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Crimson Rose

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Senior Member

07-02-2010

yea my bad.

ive played dota before, not on competitive levels though.

just enough to know what LoL was all about i guess.


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Mowarth

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Senior Member

07-02-2010

I'd accept 40% instead of 70%, however his clone should deal 100% of that dmg on turrets.


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player704

Senior Member

07-02-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by StatuatoryApe View Post
Now, hear me out. I've played against some stellar shacos, and some feeder shacos, the character itself is not "broken", but his clone is. To have literally, a second shaco, who at level 16 gets almost the exact same health, damage, and item bonuses, on demand, on a VERY short cooldown is just crazy. Imagine of mordekaiser could spawn a pet ghost whenever he wanted, ludicrous right? But his ghosts arent even half as powerful as shacos clones.

I miss the old days where shaco's clone was there for confusion, or a way to get away from a fight, not to literally double his damage output. And when stacking sunfires, the clone gets tankier then most tanks. Getting tower dived by a clone, which doesnt die, and when it does die, it does crazy AoE damage, is not fun at all.

The ONLY way to balance shaco would be to take away the "unique" passives from items, no more GA, no more bloodrazer wtfpwnage, and no more sunfire double stacking. But to balance the obvious "hit the shaco without the sunfire fire!", make it so the visual effects are still there, just no damage is done, or GA doesnt proc. Riot took a step in the right direction with the aura stacking removal, but shaco is still a problem.

Or, if that's not good enough, make the clone go on cooldown once the clone dies, not directly after you use it, that way its not up every 30 god**** seconds.

On a side note, the .5 seconds of complete invulnerability that hallucinate gives shaco is just stupid. A buddy of mine plays karthus, and we can't count how many times shaco and maybe 100 HP has dodged karthus's ult. I know it's hard to time, but its still stupid.

Tl;DR: Shaco's clone shouldnt get unique item bonuses, also cooldown should start when the clone dies, not when you use the spell.

But i know riot won't do this, shaco is one of their favourite characters. It was like pulling teeth getting them to even change Cardmaster.
Cardmaster wasn't changed because Riot really wanted to make Cardmaster balanced after the change, not because they were in love with him. Shaco's clone is good, but not super awesomely overpowered. I agree that Riot should make the clone not proc any on hit effects, or auras, or passives. That is really overpowered.

But, Riot should make Shaco and his clone appear exactly the same. If Shaco has Golem, his clone should appear to have it too, so you can't instantly tell which Shaco to focus. Also, his clone should mimic all spells Shaco casts (i.e. the animation, but not the actual spell, 2x spells would be soooooo overpowered).

The clones cooldown is short, but its 75 seconds at level 3. That's not every 2 seconds.

The clones nuke is easy to dodge, plus if Shaco stacks Sunfires, sure, he'll have tons of HP, but he'll have sh*tty deceives and two shivs.

The .5 seconds of off the map is necessary. Shaco is a very very squishy character, and that buys him time to deceive or dodge a spell. Plus, if it wasn't, think of how you could just continue targeting the original Shaco since it wouldn't change position at all.

Shaco's clone isn't overpowered, it just needs to be tweaked a ton.


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FailPatrol

Senior Member

07-02-2010

You can't compare Dota clones with shaco clones. There was 3-4 clones instead of one. It was the same damage since every clone does 40%. The level of OPness of Chaos knight and naga siren was nothing comparable.

I have been playing shaco last week and honestly i don't know why there's so many complaints. He's one of the squishiest hero in the game. Get an oracle and get him. Shaco can be very good in some games and close to useless in others.

In about 600 game, i can recall maybe 10 games where a shaco was a real threat.


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Eyes0fThousand

Senior Member

07-02-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by player704 View Post

The clones cooldown is short, but its 75 seconds at level 3. That's not every 2 seconds.

The clones nuke is easy to dodge, plus if Shaco stacks Sunfires, sure, he'll have tons of HP, but he'll have sh*tty deceives and two shivs.
.
These two are the only in your post i find problematic. Every(decent) shaco goes bloodrazer, then GA, then sunfires. His deceives, and the procs from bloodrazers (stacked twice because of the clone) is what makes him ridiculous. He doesnt need to stack damage when he's doing crazy bloodrazer damage constantly. the sunfire just make it so you can't kill him.

And a shaco usually has atleast some cooldown reducton (whether from runes, or items, or masteries, or golem) and the clone lasts up to 30 seconds. So without any CDR, the clone could be up every 45 seconds after the last died. Minimum. And usually you dont focus the clone, or switch between the two, so the clone lasting the whole 30 seconds isn't very far fetched.

At max CDR (with golem, maybe a friendly soul shroud and runes and masteries) it is up every 45 seconds at level 3. So essentially, if the clone lasts the entire duration, he has another clone, at full health, with ANOTHER guardians angel, ready to go in 15 seconds. And yes, every time the clone comes up he gets a GA, even though he's not supposed to get one. I've seen it happen every game where shaco has gotten a GA (like, 4 out of 5 games), despite how its not supposed to happen like that.


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The SHP

Senior Member

07-02-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyGoat View Post
Chaos Knight's illusions did 100% damage. And he got 3 of them.

However, in DotA illusions only got hitpoint, mana, and attribute bonuses from items (attributes being intelligence, strength and agility, which was a different stat system than LoL uses that I won't bother explaining), and didn't receive direct attack speed or damage increases. They could also only apply mana burn on-hit IIRC, no other orb effects.
and mana burn was only if they were melee (which wasn't a problem for the true cloning champs except terrorblade cloning his ranged form, but did matter for the sake of manta)

and chaos knights did 100% damage... but casting it cost most of his mana pool, it had a 3 minutes cd and only lasted 20 seconds, and you only got 1 clone per rank of the ult, so you had to get to 16 to have 3, they did 1/4 damage to towers, they took double damage, they didn't receive damage from typical damage items, only from attribute bonuses, which, for a strength champ as a dps, most of his damage and attack speed wasn't derived from the strength and agility stats but from +damage and +attack speed items.

Oh, and images could be instantly dispelled by an item active, or a few champ abilities.


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Kaeoz

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Senior Member

07-02-2010

omg stop crying about Shaco. he's only gotten nerfs since day 1.................


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KobeClutch24

Senior Member

07-02-2010

well.. i play shaco quite a bit and deceive is what a 8second cd... and tbh shaco doesnt have too much health if u cant kill him in 8 just quit ... this is what should happen


shaco decevies in 3 people (on TT) target him and he dies in 8 seconds.. hmmm not so hard and op now?


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