What do you do when your team never holds top?

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slowfiveoh

Senior Member

11-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
...
Pushing bot and capping to distract the enemy is also an effective strategy, but not one you choose to do immediately after you cap top and you have 3 points and your bot is still alive. Even if your bot is being pressured, you must also be aware of anyone dead who will spawn in just a few seconds or perhaps send a few but not all.
I want you to sit and actually apply critical thinking to what you said here.

I promise you what you state here is completely wrong.

Let me know when you are done mulling it over.


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arkilon

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Member

11-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
It is not simply a "time" game as you infer. It is a territory and team engagement game as well.

You cannot simply sit on your point, and wait for the sand to reach the bottom of the hourglass. Too many things will occur between the beginning, and end of the round for this to even be remotely plausible.

Therefore, it is not a "Time Game" in any sense. It is a game that includes many factors to be successful.

Also, and respectfully, I submit that you have very few Dominion games and are, to say the less, pretty inexperienced at Dominion.

I read your opinion just like i read everybody elses, but it honestly has no merit.


To the individual inquiring about the game replay, let me see what I can do. I have a full gathering of friends playing right now but afterwards i will do my best to upload it somewhere.

Thanks!

I would ask you not to take in consideration the amount of games played, since i do consider myself as a very analytic person, which leads me to usually understand things pretty fast.

I would also like to know why does my opinion has no merit, i am always happy to learn from my mistakes.

Finally, i think you misunderstood my ''time'' game point. Time is not the only thing in this game of course! You must put pressure at the right place at the right moment and be effective as a team. I also mentioned that staying at the turret was stupid unless you did it temporally in order to wait for your team or any opportunity to show up.

I, sadly, can't stop thinking that time is very important in dominion. Since the enemy nexus health is reduced as the time goes (yes with kills and capture early game too). Knowing this your goal is KEEP at least 3 points as long as possible in order to win. It is not a must to defend them, however if you don't you must capture the other points or be effective enough to simply stop the enemy team from capturing your points by destroying them in team fights and being very aggressive. (usually is done against bad enemy teams though.)

If you still do not agree with the importance of time, i would like to know why, since i could learn something extremely useful .

Have fun!


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FrozenXylaphone

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Senior Member

11-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
I want you to sit and actually apply critical thinking to what you said here.

I promise you what you state here is completely wrong.

Let me know when you are done mulling it over.
The irony of the man calling people 15 year olds and kids, believing himself to be an intellectual expounding his superiority complex and then saying "you have a lot to learn, and a whole hell of a lot growing up to do"

If you want to argue like an adult please do so. Adults however do not accept arguments such as "hey bro you are wrong and you know you are wrong, so there." Imagine if this poor rhetoric was displayed in a presidential debate.


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slowfiveoh

Senior Member

11-23-2011

No problem arkilon and thanks for the polite reply.

Time is a fluctuating factor. If I have no points capped, time is a more pressing consideration. If I have gained no territory, time is a pressing consideration. Once I have acquired territory, then time is a diminishing factor (Actually, it diminishes when either side possesses 1 more point than the other team). To gain territory, I must engage and kill enemy champs.

If I am efficient at killing enemy champs, I am efficient at stopping their advances on points and subsequent captures. If I am efficient at stopping their advances, points are easy to capture. If points are easy to capture, time is on my side.

Any way you slice it, Dominion is not Monopoly. You do not cap a point, then build hotels on it and watch the other team avoid it to not have to pay rent.

At some point the turret damage will be severely mitigated and almost inconsequential. This means any 2v1, 3v1, 4v2, and 5v<5 you will likely lose.

Also. You are aware game time correlates directly to the amount of points captured yes?

If you sat at 2 and 2 and contested top for all round, you would sit at 500 and 500 if all points were capped equally and at the same time, until the top was eventually won. That makes territory the defining factor of time. Territory is acquired only by contesting it, and only won by emerging victorious from teamfights.

I hope that helps you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
The irony of the man calling people 15 year olds and kids, believing himself to be an intellectual expounding his superiority complex and then saying "you have a lot to learn, and a whole hell of a lot growing up to do"

If you want to argue like an adult please do so. Adults however do not accept arguments such as "hey bro you are wrong and you know you are wrong, so there." Imagine if this poor rhetoric was displayed in a presidential debate.
Since you are incapable of answering the question, I will show you, directly, how you are wrong.

If 3 of your teammates pill, and go back to purchase/heal/resupply mana, then they are effectively moving out of the base at approximately the same time as the defeated opponents from the initial fight top as they spawn. This means if your teammates effectively push bottom, then they are definitevly going to do 1 of 2 things.

A.) Capture bot while the opposiing team runs top.

or

B.) Draw the team you infer is going top, to the bottom turret.

You are incapable of viewing the game, clearly, from any perspective but that which you wish.


By the way, your crying, pissing, moaning, and general hobnobbery on chat didn't start until your first death. Then it never quit.

As to the reference to presidential debate, clearly you have never watched one.

Furthermore, before casting an opinion, they usually have extensive personal experience or education on the subject.

You lack both.


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Dimonoin

Member

11-23-2011

I didnt finish reading all posts cause it was becoming a bit too soap opera for my taste but here's the thing.

In my opinion as a fairly "experienced" solo bot player (notice experienced means I have experience, doesnt mean Im good), if you accomplish your role as a bot player which is put constant pressure on the enemy bot in order to try and make the enemy team send assistance leaving you 1v2 (or in other words, leaving them 3v4 top) or better yet you straight out kill the enemy bot and take his point repeatedly forcing the enemy to either swap bot (bad idea unless he's a hard counter to you, in which case you wonder why didnt they send him bot in the first place) or send assistance (most cases), and your team still cant win Top or their Mid being 4 against their 3, you simply should know the game is over (and not on your favor).

Not in the sense that you should sit in the fountain and afk, dont do that.

But you have to be realistic and specially know your teams limits. If your team cant 4v3 Top while you can 1v2 bot, it means several things, and not necessarily one of them is "they are bad", maybe they simply didnt coordinate well enough (understandable if you are all solo queueing), or they dont know how to take advantage of 4v3 situations and such. So in these cases, in my eyes, you have 2 choices:

1) Go Top immediatly and use your outfarmed/fed butt to try to win those 4v4 or 4v3 fights and hard carry,

or

2) Stay bot, be godmode and stomp the 2 enemies alone forcing them to send yet another enemy to assist them, and still be able to 1v3 them all like idk freaking Zeus or something, and then your team should be able to 4v2, but in most cases, you wont pull that one off and even if they do send 3 they will just take your bot 3v1 while your team didnt manage to coordinate quick enough to 4v2 top.

This is of course another story if you are 5 man premade, but in solo queue, thats usually the generic case in my humble 140~ solo bot games of "experience" (probably have won 80% or more of them; when you start getting matched with and against competent teams its quite hard to see your team not being able to 4v3 Top if you can hold 1v2 bot).

EDIT: Also wanted to mention that what I said before about coordination is very common in solo queue games, I dont get it that much anymore because thanks God for some reason (got lucky is my best guess) I am now playing consistently with and against people who understand Dominion like everyone should and makes for awesome games where skill = everything.

However, when I wasnt on these matches, the "lower elo" previous matches or so to speak were full of lack of coordination (mostly because of lack of knowledge about Dominion strategies and such, I would think) and I remember that most of the matches where I didnt go solo bot, I would pay very close attention to what was happening at bot the entire game while still doing my role top, but just the second I would see someone appear bot 2v1 I would (if the circumstances allowed, say we were 4v3 3v2 or 2v1 near Top or were simply in a better spot than them) immediatly post in the chat "2bot dive top", ping whoever I thought we should focus first, and take the lead myself diving straight in and probably in like 99% of cases my team followed and we would obviously win the dive and the turret, but notice how I say followed me, and I dont say it to showoff or anything, I say it because my team was just hanging around pushing the lane like they normally would, and if I didnt do all this to make sure they would follow me while we had the advantage, Im like 99% sure they wouldve kept pushing normally and did nothing with it!

This is simply because they didnt know when to act and what to do. I find this similar to end-game Classic in low elo, you see everyone well farmed up everyone has their full builds and what not, but nobody has a clue of "what to do next" its basically a game of "wait till someone makes a mistake and call it gg", there are no organized fights or forcing baron depending on the circumstances, they just hang around and if they are close to baron they go for it and similar.

Its the lack of strategic knowledge that makes this happen, just like in Dominion.

Again, IM NO EXPERT and there is still a LOT for me to learn about Dominion, its just my 2 cents on this issue from my perspective so far.

EDIT2:

Quote:
"hey bro you are wrong and you know you are wrong, so there." Imagine if this poor rhetoric was displayed in a presidential debate.
Funny enough, the *terrible* president of my country (venezuela) actually does that sort of things in live TV and whatnot lol. Its so funny when journalists ask him things like "Mr President, why did you just give away 12938129837129873 million $ to [insert random country here] if your country just suffered [insert random disaster here] and it still hasnt been taken care of?"

He then goes ahead and, like a very intellectual man he is (/sarcasm) "Thats a stupid question. Im not even going to answer that because it is a stupid question, you are stupid. Next" LOL can you imagine the reactions of everyone in the room (there are actually several videos over youtube of press conferences of him answering silly things like that lol)


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frumper

Senior Member

11-23-2011

To sum up this thread, OP wants to be left alone bottom, teammates prefer a roaming offense.

News flash both strats can work, you're both being childish for not understanding the others point of view, yielding, or cooperating to win, but I'll go get some more popcorn as I hope the thread continues.


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slowfiveoh

Senior Member

11-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by frumper View Post
To sum up this thread, OP wants to be left alone bottom, teammates prefer a roaming offense.

News flash both strats can work, you're both being childish for not understanding the others point of view, yielding, or cooperating to win, but I'll go get some more popcorn as I hope the thread continues.
The percentage of success on those electing to "camp" I promise is lower than those who aggressively pursue.

Also, if my whole team said "Hey lets defend all points", or something to that effect, I would shift my gameplay to hopefully compliment their play style.

That is teamwork.

The inappropriate, time wasting way is to assume you are the all-knowing uberspieler and that you will rage in chat until everybody does whatever YOU want.

Newflash: That's never productive.


Please note that arkalin was respectful and polite, even if we disagree. Yet I had no problem responding to him politely in kind. This will communicate to you OP's mannerisms in the game that prompted his creation of this thread.

Thanks.


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FrozenXylaphone

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Senior Member

11-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
Since you are incapable of answering the question, I will show you, directly, how you are wrong.

If 3 of your teammates pill, and go back to purchase/heal/resupply mana, then they are effectively moving out of the base at approximately the same time as the defeated opponents from the initial fight top as they spawn. This means if your teammates effectively push bottom, then they are definitevly going to do 1 of 2 things.

A.) Capture bot while the opposiing team runs top.

or

B.) Draw the team you infer is going top, to the bottom turret.

You lack both.
There was no question. You were being childish trying to belittle me to make yourself feel better. Also, the childish method avoids active debate like what happens when you explain your point of view. Now I can counter argue, which is what adults do.

You see you are wrong. With all the experience you claim to have, you lack understanding of the game. When an opponent dies in a team fight, he gets a death timer. This means you kill 1 opponent, he is waiting to respawn. Now when his friends die afterwards, their timer is reduced and set close to his. This mean that unless you kill all of them at the same time, they will not respawn at a set time from when the last died, but when the first died, unless the battle was really drawn out. This means the enemy does infact get out of their base before you do when you blue pill right after a fight. I have seen it happen many times before and even in our game. Riot did reduce this window but it still exists.
You see you have to consider the time it takes to recap your neutralized point and things of this nature into how long they have till respawn. Many times they respawn right after you just capped it. But at that moment you are blue pillng and they are running back.

And as to pushing the bot, you don't need 5 people to take your own bot back pretty much ever unless 5 of the enemy team is turtling it, which was not the case. Not only this, but if 5 enemies turtle your bot, you are free to cap other points and have 3 when they will wind up with 2. Heimer is the unusual exception in that it hard to peel him off bot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
You are incapable of viewing the game, clearly, from any perspective but that which you wish.

By the way, your crying, pissing, moaning, and general hobnobbery on chat didn't start until your first death in chat. Then it never quit.

As to the reference to presidential debate, clearly you have never watched one.

Furthermore, before casting an opinion, they usually have extensive personal experience or education on the subject.

You lack both.
You act very immature for someone who wants to be taken seriously. While I admit I did rage, I didn't rage nearly as hard as you. I talked about how top should be held and you blew up on me calling me a noob and bad and how my score was bad and being last place meant I was bad. The position you then assumed endgame. Then it became us calling each other noobs and etc. In reality, this could have been avoided if you kept your tongue and just told me, "no I won't do you strategy, that is all." But rather you insisted on name calling, I don't know why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frumper View Post
To sum up this thread, OP wants to be left alone bottom, teammates prefer a roaming offense.

News flash both strats can work, you're both being childish for not understanding the others point of view, yielding, or cooperating to win, but I'll go get some more popcorn as I hope the thread continues.
This is not what I mean at all. I did not sit bot. I went top to help top. In the teamfight at top I was focused and died but we won the 4 v 4 fight that went on. Then all 3 of my teammates left top open to be capped. If I wasn't the one that died I would have stayed around collecting health packs ready to defend but my allies believe it better that 5 people rush bottom after top was capped and push it hard.


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slowfiveoh

Senior Member

11-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
There was no question. You were being childish trying to belittle me to make yourself feel better. Also, the childish method avoids active debate like what happens when you explain your point of view. Now I can counter argue, which is what adults do.
No, the question was to prompt you to actually analyze the absurdity of your claim. if you took it another way, that is your failing, not mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
You see you are wrong. With all the experience you claim to have, you lack understanding of the game. When an opponent dies in a team fight, he gets a death timer.
Thats crazy. Really? They get a death timer? You sure? (That's sarcasm guy. Lrn2notASSume

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
This means you kill 1 opponent, he is waiting to respawn. Now when his friends die afterwards, their timer is reduced and set close to his. This mean that unless you kill all of them at the same time, they will not respawn at a set time from when the last died, but when the first died, unless the battle was really drawn out.
I am very sorry to hear your tops do not end with multiple kills in a short time period. For me, and a lot of other players, they certainly do end this way. This means approximately a ~10 second timer. It takes a second or two to decide to recall in most cases, 4 seconds to actually do so, and a couple of seconds to buy whatever item out of the shop, or walk down the ramp while regening.

This makes it equitable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
This means the enemy does infact get out of their base before you do when you blue pill right after a fight. I have seen it happen many times before and even in our game. Riot did reduce this window but it still exists.
The reason "you" run into this issue, is likely because you are not persistent, nor pressuring in any way. You do not attempt to complete annihilation of their team in proximity to top during the initial fight. I can tell you with absolute certainty, that 99% of the time after I recall from a 2 or 3 person kill top, I am leaving my spawn at approximately the same time.

Again, it is unfortunate that you do not have this level of success.

It is also shortsighted to not wonder what would happen had you elected to recall as well, then come back with a fully healed, fresh team. You would very likely simply roll right over them again.

In any case, your reply is, again, shortsighted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
You see you have to consider the time it takes to recap your neutralized point and things of this nature into how long they have till respawn. Many times they respawn right after you just capped it. But at that moment you are blue pillng and they are running back.
You try to speak in absolutes, and it is dropping your credibility massively.

I already specified time is a factor, but time is a factor of your efficiency on the field.

You are clearly talking about some really weak, half-hearted initial fight, wherein your teammates didnt kill but one or two champions. Most of my initial teamfights end with 3-4 of their champs dead. Also, you are still grossly misrepresenting the time actually spent dead.

Again, several of them will take approximately ~10 seconds to spawn.
It takes 4 seconds to recall.
So you are "usually" leaving the base around the same time they are.

Even if you are leaving late, apply the pressure elsewhere in the most successful manner possible. If 4 of them are heading top, yes, take their bot. Then as they fall back, roll back over top and acquire it.

You cannot simply sit top with all of your team and act like its going to fix everything. Not Monopoly there bud. Its Dominion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
And as to pushing the bot, you don't need 5 people to take your own bot back pretty much ever unless 5 of the enemy team is turtling it, which was not the case.
If 5 of them come to assault bot, and you are sitting top, then somebody is in the wrong, and it is not the rest of your team.

If 5 of them take bot, then top is not the pressing issue. Once your bot or mid is acquired, then the enemy team has succesfully used their aggression and teamplay dominance to walk into, and take over, your territory. This is easy to accomplish when your Nocturne is sitting top, by himself, polluting chat with meaningless diatribe and worthless instruction.

The reality of the situation is that every point is important, but those right next to your base are the key to the rest of your map.

It is also imperative that every team member contribute, to the best of their ability, to their team.

As Nocturne, it is not sitting on top turret, waiting 45 seconds to a minute inbetween being rushed, while watching your team try to reclaim their bot in a 4v5 scenario, while, again, their primary AD carry is sitting on top, talking non-stop.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
Not only this, but if 5 enemies turtle your bot, you are free to cap other points and have 3 when they will wind up with 2. Heimer is the unusual exception in that it hard to peel him off bot.
So you would let them freely possess your closest point to try to cross the entire map and then own their points?

That would almost be sound advice if they werent sure to already be dominating you anyways, which is why they walked up to your bot/mid and took it by force anyways.

Here is what is really going on here:

You, like so many other people who end up playing lackluster dominion games, think this game is about avoiding teamfights, sitting under turrets, and simply walking up to those that are neutral and/or appear to not be contended.

Here is reality:

You MUST be able to dominate the other team through gameplay, competency, and sheer persistence and aggression, to contend and adequately defend said points.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
You act very immature for someone who wants to be taken seriously.
Honestly I give about half an ounce of fecal matter in return for your opinion.

You fought with your team all round.
You were ineffective.
You used every key on the keyboard except the ones that moved and/or made your champion do something meaningful for over 5 minutes of the match.

You then pop onto the forum looking for absolution from your peers.

My hope?

That they never have to play with you, or people like you ever again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
While I admit I did rage, I didn't rage nearly as hard as you.
You did not shut up. You kept going. You insulted others.

Ever walk into the grocery store and see that kid crying because his mom didn't buy him that tooth-decaying treat, and the entire duration of your shopping trip you had to put up with that kid, somewhere in the store, whining the entire time?

Yeah, that's what it was like playing with you.

I admit to raging. Would you like to know why?

Because guys like you ruin this game. You have no concept of team unity. You think when you **** you should bottle it and sell it for a million dollars to Fabreze, cause it doesn't stink at all.

You literally went 2/11/4 in Dominion as Noc. How is this even possible?

I don't care what type of spin you try to put on it, you failed hard. Primarily, due to your **** teamwork and oversized mouth.

A large portion of that was directly caused by your clickety-clacking on the keyboard nonstop for 5+ minutes, calling other people stupid. The two you said were "Ruining the game", were the ones who had like 11 points capped a piece, 8 neutralizations, and were somewhere around 14/3/11 alike. They finished 1st and 2nd, deservedly. Their gameplay was stellar, and if our Noc had helped, we would have won.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
I talked about how top should be held and you blew up on me calling me a noob and bad and how my score was bad and being last place meant I was bad. The position you then assumed endgame.
Look at you trying to understate your actions. It's interesting...

No genius. You "raged" about how nobody was top while your teammates were fighting 4v5's for essentially the whole round, while Noc sat under a turret.

How is it that your team all goes 8/11/15, 14/3/11, 10/2/14 etc, but YOU go 2/11/4?

Also, the comment about "being in last place", was not even something I said. I know exactly who made that comment, and it was another person on our team. Another person irritated with baddy Noc, to be totally blunt with you.

The reason they didn't say **** about me? I was the only reason we won a lot of our teamfights, 4v5. Galios ult is a b**** that way...

So is a stacked resolute smite and righteous gust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
Then it became us calling each other noobs and etc.
In reality, this could have been avoided if you kept your tongue and just told me, "no I won't do you strategy, that is all." But rather you insisted on name calling, I don't know why.
You opened your mouth. You felt it necessary to try to play team captain while stinking up the field. You referred to others as idiots because they didn't want to kowtow to your completely worthless orders.

I literally let this go on for at least 2 or 3 minutes before saying ANYTHING.

You need to realize it was YOUR cocky, arrogant, presumptuous, smarmy attitude and mouth that resulted in being flamed by everybody on your team.

So bite your own tongue kid, and in the meantime, learn to play as a team.

While you are at it, learn cause and effect. Your mouth opened, your team responded.

At least i am polite enough to try and educate you as to why you got raged at by everyone, and your mannerisms that incur this kind of otherwise nonexistent behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
This is not what I mean at all. I did not sit bot. I went top to help top. In the teamfight at top I was focused and died but we won the 4 v 4 fight that went on. Then all 3 of my teammates left top open to be capped. If I wasn't the one that died I would have stayed around collecting health packs ready to defend but my allies believe it better that 5 people rush bottom after top was capped and push it hard.
We all met again top afterwards at roughly the same time, after the initial fight. Top was never the issue most of the round. Bottom was.

Our Noc was never present in teamfights, was prone to being ganked after his team was wiped out due to his lack of participation, and frankly spent more time clickety-clackin his keyboard then actually playing the game.

On a sidenote, he had plenty of time to type, because he frankly did nothing else.


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arkilon

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Member

11-24-2011

slowfiveoh, i do appreciate your answer and the fact that you too were polite! Being polite and taking other people opinion is the number one rule in communication.

I do approve that the territory are a big part of the game, it all depends on it in fact. You are right on the way you see time in this game. But i would like to put my opinion in a better way, very simple in fact.

You win the game if you hold at least one more objective than the opposite team for a longer period than they do. I do not want to involve any strategy in this, it is simply to show what do i mean by the time being important. If you compare it to a classic game of ''Lol'' in which time only means gold/neutral monsters and does not affect directly when the game will end. In dominion it does affect when the game will end.

Have fun!