What do you do when your team never holds top?

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slowfiveoh

Senior Member

11-23-2011

Your dynamic is shallow and not at all the appropriate question to ask.

There is more to dominion than "Hey bro you has full health. Sit under that turret mkay?".

As another poster alluded to, territory control is far more important. Furthermore, being able to persistently push the other team into retreat or defeat is far more important than sneaking off to cap a point (their mid for example) that will simply be recaptured in 2 seconds.

Think more abstractly about the entirety of the game, and don't focus on such simplified questions which have a multitude of answers.


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FrozenXylaphone

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Senior Member

11-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
Your dynamic is shallow and not at all the appropriate question to ask.

There is more to dominion than "Hey bro you has full health. Sit under that turret mkay?".

As another poster alluded to, territory control is far more important. Furthermore, being able to persistently push the other team into retreat or defeat is far more important than sneaking off to cap a point (their mid for example) that will simply be recaptured in 2 seconds.

Think more abstractly about the entirety of the game, and don't focus on such simplified questions which have a multitude of answers.
It is not about sitting at a turret, it is about being ready to interrupt a cap. If you bluepill immediately after a 4 v 4 fight that you won, 4 of the enemies will be half way across the map ready to start capping while your team just hit the base(they respawn at the same time). This actually happened in our game. Sure, there are times to do many things, but top is pretty much the most important spot. Bot is easier to take back as is mid. Top can often be quite hard to take back if you allow the enemy to free cap it.
You can still enter a teamfight if you don't bluepill and you stay around top and mid taking health packs to restore yourself. But if you go back to base, top is a free cap for the enemy.

Also, I would like to watch the lolreplay.


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slowfiveoh

Senior Member

11-23-2011

Top is not hard to take back at all. Simply requires a committed team for engagement. When one of your teammates (or God forbid, two of them) decide not to partake in the rest of the teams activities, then you have a deficiency that will cost the match.

Again, Dominion is not at all, in any way about simply capturing points. It is far more about the center line dividing both sides of the map and who can push it deeper towards the other teams base, controlling all points behind it.

It's like backdooring. Backdooring in Dominion is almost always a fruitless endeavor.

Please notice that during our game when 3 people recalled, those same 3 people went to help defend a bot being pushed by the freshly respawned teammates. There was in fact, no top push as you claim.

We lost the fight because instead of being a free-roaming damage threat (which Noc should always be), you opted to avoid team engagements and sit under the turret. Then when your team dies trying to defend the point in front of your own spawn, you cry "foul" as their victorious team marches north and slaps top like you aren't even there.

Then, when we DO all die, any and all survivors will come and easily fold you. Your freshly spawned teammates will have to try to recapture the bottom turret for instance.


Aggressiveness, aggressiveness, aggressiveness.
Map control, map control, map control.

Please note sitting under a turret is not an exercise of either.


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Mindllapse

Senior Member

11-23-2011

If your top wins a 4v4 fight and kills all of their 4 and caps it

then it won't matter even if they have 99% hp and press B because by the time they get back to top the enemy team who all just died will barely be spawning or have just spawned

the problem is when they press B and then forget to go back to top and get sidetracked in the jungle or something


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McMadd

Member

11-23-2011

You should always be pressuring the enemy somewhere. If you're sitting alone on a turret while the rest of your team are all fighting, you are doing it wrong. In that situation, you should either join your team or taking something else.


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slowfiveoh

Senior Member

11-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindllapse View Post
If your top wins a 4v4 fight and kills all of their 4 and caps it

then it won't matter even if they have 99% hp and press B because by the time they get back to top the enemy team who all just died will barely be spawning or have just spawned

the problem is when they press B and then forget to go back to top and get sidetracked in the jungle or something
This is a good, accurate assessment.

Also, if you are able to persistently pressure their two caps outside their base, you are effectively keeping their hands full.

I have literally had the pleasure of our team being so aggressive and dominant that we simply have them camped to the end of their spawn ramps. It results in a dance party.

Also, I have had the greatest games ever, where BOTH teams are aggressive and it comes down to less than a 10 point margin. Usually the win is decided by the more aggressive team, and a clutch kill and/or cap.

Those are the truly great games...


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Waterd

Senior Member

11-23-2011

I would like to see the replay but for what im reading slowfiveoh has definitly a clue, and when I read op I want to cry. Being offensive is the best way to win dominion, sitting in top tower doing nothing and against non pressure is classic beginner mistake.

It seems clear to me slowfiveoh understands how dominion is played and OP does not. But I would like to see replay , can you upload to mediafire?


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arkilon

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Member

11-23-2011

Actually, to really answer the question, when you just captured a point, after a team fight it is useful and, in my opinion, a must, to stay at the turret if you can. Yes everyone is telling ''you do not do anything, you are useless'' which is incorrect in my opinion.

First of all if everyone back to the base, it leaves the turret free to be captured, staying there will assure that the enemies will at least wait a while for all of their members to regroup before going heads on for the turret.

The most important point in dominion is the fact that is it a ''time'' game, once you control most of the points, you try to keep it that way as long as possible. If the whole team retreat it is more than likely that an enemy champion will capture top, making it harder to recapture after and making your team lose points. They won't make it in time? it really depends when the enemy was killed in the team fight and if he has good movement speed, but usually, after the first top fight the enemy has enough time to at least neutralize the turret.

I am not stating that you should stay at the turret the whole game, this is simply stupid. However if you can stay at a turret while your team is retreating to heal themselves and buy items, you should, then when your team is ready, go on for a team fight.

Like many said before me, you must put pressure on the enemy team, having at least one champion on a turret is an effective way to do so, especially if you are currently waiting for your teammates.

Finally, kills and score in dominion DO NOT represent the skill level of a player, i have played many games as a tank getting the lowest score but i did (in my opinion) an extremely useful job. Please do not judge other people performance by using the scoring system of dominion or the kills!

Hope i helped, have fun!


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slowfiveoh

Senior Member

11-23-2011

It is not simply a "time" game as you infer. It is a territory and team engagement game as well.

You cannot simply sit on your point, and wait for the sand to reach the bottom of the hourglass. Too many things will occur between the beginning, and end of the round for this to even be remotely plausible.

Therefore, it is not a "Time Game" in any sense. It is a game that includes many factors to be successful.

Also, and respectfully, I submit that you have very few Dominion games and are, to say the less, pretty inexperienced at Dominion.

I read your opinion just like i read everybody elses, but it honestly has no merit.


To the individual inquiring about the game replay, let me see what I can do. I have a full gathering of friends playing right now but afterwards i will do my best to upload it somewhere.

Thanks!


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FrozenXylaphone

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Senior Member

11-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkilon View Post
Actually, to really answer the question, when you just captured a point, after a team fight it is useful and, in my opinion, a must, to stay at the turret if you can. Yes everyone is telling ''you do not do anything, you are useless'' which is incorrect in my opinion.

First of all if everyone back to the base, it leaves the turret free to be captured, staying there will assure that the enemies will at least wait a while for all of their members to regroup before going heads on for the turret.

The most important point in dominion is the fact that is it a ''time'' game, once you control most of the points, you try to keep it that way as long as possible. If the whole team retreat it is more than likely that an enemy champion will capture top, making it harder to recapture after and making your team lose points. They won't make it in time? it really depends when the enemy was killed in the team fight and if he has good movement speed, but usually, after the first top fight the enemy has enough time to at least neutralize the turret.

I am not stating that you should stay at the turret the whole game, this is simply stupid. However if you can stay at a turret while your team is retreating to heal themselves and buy items, you should, then when your team is ready, go on for a team fight.

Like many said before me, you must put pressure on the enemy team, having at least one champion on a turret is an effective way to do so, especially if you are currently waiting for your teammates.

Finally, kills and score in dominion DO NOT represent the skill level of a player, i have played many games as a tank getting the lowest score but i did (in my opinion) an extremely useful job. Please do not judge other people performance by using the scoring system of dominion or the kills!

Hope i helped, have fun!
Thanks, this is essentially the idea I put forth. The point is to not sit at the turret just to sit at the turret, the point is just to be ready to put pressure on the enemy if they want to cap. There is many ways to effectively use this strategy. Some champs do it better than others. For instance, Lux can run around in the jungle collecting packs and when and enemy goes to cap, she can interrupt from range. This can also make the enemy eat a turret shot as well.

Essentially, if it is 4 v 4 fight at the enemies tower and you win, there is not equal skill involved. That is the idea behind keeping the top tower. The importance of top means it usually forces an equal sides fight and if each team is at equal skill and equally good team comps, the one without the tower is doomed to lose.

Pushing bot and capping to distract the enemy is also an effective strategy, but not one you choose to do immediately after you cap top and you have 3 points and your bot is still alive. Even if your bot is being pressured, you must also be aware of anyone dead who will spawn in just a few seconds or perhaps send a few but not all.