Renekton - Croc is asking to be heard Riot!

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Kerbere

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Senior Member

05-24-2012

Bump


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00Rathiel00

Senior Member

05-24-2012

buuuuump


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TrASypher

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05-24-2012

Let me clarify some things about Renekton so that we can better discuss what changes need to be made.

When I write damages, I will use this format
nonfury-fury

1. Slice and Dice is Renekton's highest damaging ability
-Cull does 180-270 damage, while slice&dice does 300-425 total
-Cull has a 0.8-1.2 AD ratio, while slice has 1.5-2.25
-Ruthless predator only does 90-135 damage base, while slice does 425. Almost all of ruthless predator's damage comes from 1.5-2.25 your total AD, so you should never level up ruthless predator first.

2. Slice and Dice Armor Percent Reduction, which is not the same as Percent Pen
25% penetration would happen AFTER flat reduction, while 25% reduction happens BEFORE flat reduction.
For Example:
100 armor vs 50% pen and 50 flat pen leaves 25 armor
100 armor vs 50% reduction and 50 flat pen leaves 0 armor

With no armor/magic resist abilities and a flat health bonus, it is not viable to itemize deeply into damage and cooldown reduction, because you will simply die too fast to even use your CDR.

Renekton works better when you build him tankier. Use defensive boots and combo armor/magic resist with his 600 HP ultimate to take more advantage of effective HP.

Last whisper is a MUST to make renekton's spells do damage late game. It adds considerable flat AD for the ratios, and the percent pen effects all three of his high damaging physical spells.

200 armor vs last whisper Renekton with last Whisper:
200 armor - 25% reduction, 31 flat pen, 46% penetration = 64 armor

Renekton has no auto attack or defensive bonuses, so Frozen Mallet fails in two senses, it doesn't add enough durability for Renekton, and he doesn't benefit from being allowed to continuously auto attack or stay close to enemies. If you wanted to use frozen mallet to help your allies by slowing enemies, you are better off using it on a different character.

Merc Treads, Dorans Blades, Warmogs, Chain Vest, Last Whisper work really well into late game.

Here are what I believe to be the main problems with Renekton.

Fury is impossible to generate late game. Renekton's ultimate should generate fury instantly, like Tryndamere's ultimate. That would allow Renekton to respond to the start of a team fight by immediately having enough fury to do some damage.

Slice and Dice doesn't have enough time between Slice and Dice. I often Slice, start attacking, get stunned, and then can't dice to close distance with the enemy that just walked away. Renekton has no movespeed abilities, he has an extremely long cooldown move ability that can be disrupted half way through with stun spells.

Riven never seems to have the problem of not being able to Q again, because her Q cooldown is much shorter than slice, and it gives her more time between Q's than slice/dice gives Renekton.

All this being said, I think that Slice/Dice actually does INSANE amounts of damage as a movement ability. 425 physical damage base AOE with movement? The damage on Slice/Dice could easily be lowered, pushed into Cull the meek or increase the base damage on Ruthless Predator, and Slice/Dice with lower damage could also have a shorter cooldown.


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John Thelrick

Senior Member

05-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrASypher View Post
Let me clarify some things about Renekton so that we can better discuss what changes need to be made.

When I write damages, I will use this format
nonfury-fury

1. Slice and Dice is Renekton's highest damaging ability
-Cull does 180-270 damage, while slice&dice does 300-425 total
-Cull has a 0.8-1.2 AD ratio, while slice has 1.5-2.25
-Ruthless predator only does 90-135 damage base, while slice does 425. Almost all of ruthless predator's damage comes from 1.5-2.25 your total AD, so you should never level up ruthless predator first.

2. Slice and Dice Armor Percent Reduction, which is not the same as Percent Pen
25% penetration would happen AFTER flat reduction, while 25% reduction happens BEFORE flat reduction.
For Example:
100 armor vs 50% pen and 50 flat pen leaves 25 armor
100 armor vs 50% reduction and 50 flat pen leaves 0 armor

With no armor/magic resist abilities and a flat health bonus, it is not viable to itemize deeply into damage and cooldown reduction, because you will simply die too fast to even use your CDR.

Renekton works better when you build him tankier. Use defensive boots and combo armor/magic resist with his 600 HP ultimate to take more advantage of effective HP.

Last whisper is a MUST to make renekton's spells do damage late game. It adds considerable flat AD for the ratios, and the percent pen effects all three of his high damaging physical spells.

200 armor vs last whisper Renekton with last Whisper:
200 armor - 25% reduction, 31 flat pen, 46% penetration = 64 armor

Renekton has no auto attack or defensive bonuses, so Frozen Mallet fails in two senses, it doesn't add enough durability for Renekton, and he doesn't benefit from being allowed to continuously auto attack or stay close to enemies. If you wanted to use frozen mallet to help your allies by slowing enemies, you are better off using it on a different character.

Merc Treads, Dorans Blades, Warmogs, Chain Vest, Last Whisper work really well into late game.

Here are what I believe to be the main problems with Renekton.

Fury is impossible to generate late game. Renekton's ultimate should generate fury instantly, like Tryndamere's ultimate. That would allow Renekton to respond to the start of a team fight by immediately having enough fury to do some damage.

Slice and Dice doesn't have enough time between Slice and Dice. I often Slice, start attacking, get stunned, and then can't dice to close distance with the enemy that just walked away. Renekton has no movespeed abilities, he has an extremely long cooldown move ability that can be disrupted half way through with stun spells.

Riven never seems to have the problem of not being able to Q again, because her Q cooldown is much shorter than slice, and it gives her more time between Q's than slice/dice gives Renekton.

All this being said, I think that Slice/Dice actually does INSANE amounts of damage as a movement ability. 425 physical damage base AOE with movement? The damage on Slice/Dice could easily be lowered, pushed into Cull the meek or increase the base damage on Ruthless Predator, and Slice/Dice with lower damage could also have a shorter cooldown.
This might be the most concise and clarifying comment for this thread, thanks man.


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00Rathiel00

Senior Member

05-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrASypher View Post
Let me clarify some things about Renekton so that we can better discuss what changes need to be made.

When I write damages, I will use this format
nonfury-fury

1. Slice and Dice is Renekton's highest damaging ability
-Cull does 180-270 damage, while slice&dice does 300-425 total
-Cull has a 0.8-1.2 AD ratio, while slice has 1.5-2.25
-Ruthless predator only does 90-135 damage base, while slice does 425. Almost all of ruthless predator's damage comes from 1.5-2.25 your total AD, so you should never level up ruthless predator first.

2. Slice and Dice Armor Percent Reduction, which is not the same as Percent Pen
25% penetration would happen AFTER flat reduction, while 25% reduction happens BEFORE flat reduction.
For Example:
100 armor vs 50% pen and 50 flat pen leaves 25 armor
100 armor vs 50% reduction and 50 flat pen leaves 0 armor

With no armor/magic resist abilities and a flat health bonus, it is not viable to itemize deeply into damage and cooldown reduction, because you will simply die too fast to even use your CDR.

Renekton works better when you build him tankier. Use defensive boots and combo armor/magic resist with his 600 HP ultimate to take more advantage of effective HP.

Last whisper is a MUST to make renekton's spells do damage late game. It adds considerable flat AD for the ratios, and the percent pen effects all three of his high damaging physical spells.

200 armor vs last whisper Renekton with last Whisper:
200 armor - 25% reduction, 31 flat pen, 46% penetration = 64 armor

Renekton has no auto attack or defensive bonuses, so Frozen Mallet fails in two senses, it doesn't add enough durability for Renekton, and he doesn't benefit from being allowed to continuously auto attack or stay close to enemies. If you wanted to use frozen mallet to help your allies by slowing enemies, you are better off using it on a different character.

Merc Treads, Dorans Blades, Warmogs, Chain Vest, Last Whisper work really well into late game.

Here are what I believe to be the main problems with Renekton.

Fury is impossible to generate late game. Renekton's ultimate should generate fury instantly, like Tryndamere's ultimate. That would allow Renekton to respond to the start of a team fight by immediately having enough fury to do some damage.

Slice and Dice doesn't have enough time between Slice and Dice. I often Slice, start attacking, get stunned, and then can't dice to close distance with the enemy that just walked away. Renekton has no movespeed abilities, he has an extremely long cooldown move ability that can be disrupted half way through with stun spells.

Riven never seems to have the problem of not being able to Q again, because her Q cooldown is much shorter than slice, and it gives her more time between Q's than slice/dice gives Renekton.

All this being said, I think that Slice/Dice actually does INSANE amounts of damage as a movement ability. 425 physical damage base AOE with movement? The damage on Slice/Dice could easily be lowered, pushed into Cull the meek or increase the base damage on Ruthless Predator, and Slice/Dice with lower damage could also have a shorter cooldown.
Thanks for the nice comment. It's good to see a player actually taking some time to explain his reasons.
Sadly we have a ton of good ideas to fix Renekton, our real problem is that NOBODY is paying attention to us :/


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Sachel Page

Senior Member

05-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrASypher View Post
Let me clarify some things about Renekton so that we can better discuss what changes need to be made.

When I write damages, I will use this format
nonfury-fury

1. Slice and Dice is Renekton's highest damaging ability
-Cull does 180-270 damage, while slice&dice does 300-425 total
-Cull has a 0.8-1.2 AD ratio, while slice has 1.5-2.25
-Ruthless predator only does 90-135 damage base, while slice does 425. Almost all of ruthless predator's damage comes from 1.5-2.25 your total AD, so you should never level up ruthless predator first.

2. Slice and Dice Armor Percent Reduction, which is not the same as Percent Pen
25% penetration would happen AFTER flat reduction, while 25% reduction happens BEFORE flat reduction.
For Example:
100 armor vs 50% pen and 50 flat pen leaves 25 armor
100 armor vs 50% reduction and 50 flat pen leaves 0 armor

With no armor/magic resist abilities and a flat health bonus, it is not viable to itemize deeply into damage and cooldown reduction, because you will simply die too fast to even use your CDR.

Renekton works better when you build him tankier. Use defensive boots and combo armor/magic resist with his 600 HP ultimate to take more advantage of effective HP.

Last whisper is a MUST to make renekton's spells do damage late game. It adds considerable flat AD for the ratios, and the percent pen effects all three of his high damaging physical spells.

200 armor vs last whisper Renekton with last Whisper:
200 armor - 25% reduction, 31 flat pen, 46% penetration = 64 armor

Renekton has no auto attack or defensive bonuses, so Frozen Mallet fails in two senses, it doesn't add enough durability for Renekton, and he doesn't benefit from being allowed to continuously auto attack or stay close to enemies. If you wanted to use frozen mallet to help your allies by slowing enemies, you are better off using it on a different character.

Merc Treads, Dorans Blades, Warmogs, Chain Vest, Last Whisper work really well into late game.

Here are what I believe to be the main problems with Renekton.

Fury is impossible to generate late game. Renekton's ultimate should generate fury instantly, like Tryndamere's ultimate. That would allow Renekton to respond to the start of a team fight by immediately having enough fury to do some damage.

Slice and Dice doesn't have enough time between Slice and Dice. I often Slice, start attacking, get stunned, and then can't dice to close distance with the enemy that just walked away. Renekton has no movespeed abilities, he has an extremely long cooldown move ability that can be disrupted half way through with stun spells.

Riven never seems to have the problem of not being able to Q again, because her Q cooldown is much shorter than slice, and it gives her more time between Q's than slice/dice gives Renekton.

All this being said, I think that Slice/Dice actually does INSANE amounts of damage as a movement ability. 425 physical damage base AOE with movement? The damage on Slice/Dice could easily be lowered, pushed into Cull the meek or increase the base damage on Ruthless Predator, and Slice/Dice with lower damage could also have a shorter cooldown.

Great breakdown on renekton here. Sometimes when you see the numbers things become more clear. Good Job!!!!!


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Oh God Stop

Senior Member

05-25-2012

Renekton is my most played champion.
He is not in need of buffs.
The problem is that people want him to play like Irelia, when thats not what his role is.
Properly built, he can jump on the AD or AP carry with relative ease, and likely kill them.
With his ult on, fury, and a Q on 3 or 4 champions, he can heal to full.
He's not meant to be nearly as tanky and he'll never be able to take on Jax past level 11, but he has far more burst than any other solo top.


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Sachel Page

Senior Member

05-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh God Stop View Post
Renekton is my most played champion.
He is not in need of buffs.
The problem is that people want him to play like Irelia, when thats not what his role is.
Properly built, he can jump on the AD or AP carry with relative ease, and likely kill them.
With his ult on, fury, and a Q on 3 or 4 champions, he can heal to full.
He's not meant to be nearly as tanky and he'll never be able to take on Jax past level 11, but he has far more burst than any other solo top.
For me personally I cannot speak for everyone else that has posted now or before about renekton. But he does have some issues that could use some work. I cannot say he is just fine the way he is as many have said he could use some help. Not buffs but maybe quality of life changes as all champs can use those to some degree. I think that's what many have been asking for since his nerf last year. Various statements have been made by Morello himself regarding renenkton. This one caught my eye
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Renekton could use some help - though I may want to go slightly crazier and give him bigger moments based on Fury. I think it's a little "flat" right no, so we could definitely do some things here.
Now this statement also shows interest as well
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I agree we could do some work to make him more fun - that's fine. I think his balance is pretty good, but some tweaks that make him be a better play experience is something I'm open to.

Renekton and jax and irelia are different I think many know that. But I can agree with you that some people want him to be irelia in some ways ability to carry that way not gonna happen. But he can use some changes because I'll say it again and many have as well with chips on the line and you need that one solo top champ to get you from early mid late and possibly much later game renekton just is not the best choice compared to many of his solo top opponents.

But the myth is he's this god tier solo top beyond the early game and until many see a renekton carry in a tourney I think the debate will continue about this guy versus riven irelia etc. That have proven over time in tourney play they can carry beyond what renekton is at the moment. I say at the moment because we don't know what Riot has in store for him down the road.

This post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furi0usJ View Post
My main problem is that when I look at Renekton I see a giant, bloodthirsty, killer crocodile with a giant bladed weapon.

I then think "Oh yah, this guy is gonna be awesome and his play will feel EPIC"

Then, I play him. And it's not that he's terrible. Not that he's unplayable. He can lane top and do 'okay' - i.e. he stays alive until 6 vs most tops so that he can have a little fun, then falls off dramatically mid-late game.

But...he doesn't feel particularly good at anything, or particularly fun.

His play often feels flat, and unrewarding. You take risks, you dive through enemies and minions, and feel like you should be doing some serious damage by taking that risk. But, you don't - not really.

Honestly, I don't know what he needs, but I know what I want: When I play Renekton I want it to FEEL like I'm playing the character that I'm seeing. Fun. Aggressive. Dangerous. Risky.

And...it just ends up feeling kind of boring and uninspiring.
says it all and why many are interested in renekton but are still on the fence about him as well. He is strong no doubt but many will continue to debate as well that he is not one of the quote on quote best choices up top there.


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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

05-25-2012

I made another Renekton buff thread, sort of revising my last one. You can go ahead and add it to the list. I'll go ahead and put the contents on here as well, but you can vote on it here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...9#post24595319

The three biggest complaints regarding Renekton:
1. Stun Animation on his W
2. His Passive is somewhat non-existent
3. His Ultimate in general

My proposed changes: (Old and New only address aspects being changed. All untouched details will remain on their respective skills)

Reign of Anger (Passive):
Old - When Renekton is below 50% health he generates 50% more fury from all sources
New - For every 1% of health missing Renekton gains 1% more fury from all sources

Renekton is all about 2 things: Keeping his cooldowns up and managing his Enraged abilities. Early game he doesn't have much trouble with this, but late game this becomes a struggle. This causes him to somewhat fall off harder than most other champions in the late game, even if fed due to how useless and avoidable he can be in team fights. This change makes him better in team fights and allows the purpose of his passive to be apparent at all times rather than half the time. This will cause him to be better in team fights and hopefully not fall off as hard.

Ruthless Predator (W):
Old - Stun lasts .75 seconds normally, and 1.5 seconds with 50+ fury. The animation is .5 seconds long.
New - Stun animation is now .25 seconds long.

Not accounting for tenacity, this change would allow Renekton .5 seconds of attacking normally when the enemy is stunned and a full 1.25 seconds when he uses the stun with 50+ fury. The old .5 second animation self rooting himself, when accounting for tenacity, didnt really give him time to combo which is ironic considering he is a huge combo based burst AD champion. This would also allow him to harass much safer, which is always nice for team fights and 1v1s.

Dominus (Ultimate):
Old:
- Magic damage per second scales with .1 per Ability Power
- Maximum magic damage scales with 1.5 per Ability Power
- Generates 5 fury per second for 15 seconds
New:
- Magic damage per second scales with .1 per Attack Damage
- Maximum magic damage scales with 1.5 per Attack Damage
- Generates 10 fury per second for 15 seconds
- On activation instantly gains 50/75/100 fury
- Renekton's Fury Empowered abilities deal 5/10/20% more damage during the duration.

The changes are a mixture of Shyvana's, Riven's and Tryndamere's ultimates. His ult now scales with AD, because Renekton has absolutely no reason to ever build AP and there are plenty of champions that have magic damage dealing abilities that scale with AD (Shyvana, Riven, Darius to name a few). His fury generation per second is doubled to 150 after 15 seconds rather than 75, so he can do a minimum of 3 empowered fury attacks rather than 1.5. He instantly gains Fury, like Tryndamere's ult, so it truely enhances him in more ways than just bulkiness. Lastly, directly inspired by Riven, all of his Fury Empowered abilities deal more damage during the duration of his ultimate. This will give him a true team fighting presence and allow him to survive encounters he normally wouldn't in lanes. Just think of a Riven without her abilities dealing more damage during her Ultimate.

Now, I am in no way trying to make Renekton OP. I think he is actually pretty UP in the overall game. These changes wont prevent him from totally falling off, but it will make his Team Fighting powers much more noticeable and will allow him to support his team and himself much better in the overall game.


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ElMage21

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Senior Member

05-25-2012

I got tired o bumping this thread.