Dodge Changes (to make stacking less effective)

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Kingreaper

Senior Member

09-30-2009

As far as I know, Dodge currently stacks in a simple multiplicative manner.

This seems like it'll make dodge extremely hard to balance correctly, with it either ending up mostly useless, or OP when stacked.

It means that 10% dodge always gives a 11% boost to your Effective Hitpoints vs. physical damage. No matter how much dodge, armour and HP you already have.


20 armour will give 20% EHP if you have no armour, 15% EHP if you have 50 armour, 10% EHP if you have 100, 7% if you have 150 etc.


The same applies to HP, although HP also works against magic.



Dodge, at present, works against everything Armour does. It also works against things armour does not (any "on-hit" proc ability, ie. Wit's End, Frozen Mallet etc.)
This means that Dodge is the ultimate late-game defense against physical attacks, making it very easy for Dodge to end up overpowered.
And that's before you even add the Nimbleness mastery into the mix.


How do we counter this trend? Make dodge have diminishing returns and/or give it weaknesses that Armour doesn't have.



Option 1
Simple, make dodge stack like Cooldown Reduction (multiplicative to a 75% max)
This doesn't remove the possibility of OP stacking, but it does make it significantly less major.

Option 2
Possible weaknesses:
1. Towers undodgeable A significant weakness if implemented, but hard to explain logically. Making the image of tower attacks slightly bigger would make it seem sensible however.


2. Can't dodge/or reduced dodge, while stunned Stuns are supposed to be the control method for heroes like Jax and Kat who are also those who stack dodge, so making stuns prevent dodging seems perfectly sane.

3. Dodge is decreased while slowed This fits with the whole stun thing, but personally I wouldn't go for it. Still, it does make sense, if your movement is slowed, it'll be harder to dodge.


What do you guys think? Does something need to be done to make balancing dodge easier? Do any of these ideas fit?

I believe they may be planning to implement the weakness to towers already.


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Aspartem

Senior Member

09-30-2009

I've doubts about the armor. I guess they're using the same relation of values as for example Wc3. And in Wc3 every point armor increases your ehp by 6% flat. Because every additional % of reduction is more effective than the one before.

Example:
Let's assume A hits B for 100 dmg.
Option A: Diffrence between 1% and 10%: 90 dmg instead of 99 is a 10.9% reduction of dmg.
Option B: Diffrence between 90% and 99%: 1 dmg instead of 10 is a 90% reduction of dmg.

That's why you need more armor value to increase the same portion of %-dmg reduction.

You can't say 10% dodge is 11% EHP. Because you don't take magic damage into consideration. So its 10% more EHP against physical attacks (not 11%).
Second, it doesnt apply to Hp because HP is your starting point, the value you calculate with <.<.

Imo Dodge + Crit should only stack multiplicative and it should be impossible to dodge towers. That would be enough imo. The only one who can towerdive like a bulldog is Jax, so nerf his dodge and everything is fine.


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Kingreaper

Senior Member

09-30-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspartem View Post
I've doubts about the armor. I guess they're using the same relation of values as for example Wc3. And in Wc3 every point armor increases your ehp by 6% flat. Because every additional % of reduction is more effective than the one before.
Nope, although it'd be a reasonable method, they've given the formula they use, otherwise I would have asked for it before commenting on the relative merits, 100 armour is 50% reduction, 200 is 2/3rd reduction etc.


Quote:
You can't say 10% dodge is 11% EHP. Because you don't take magic damage into consideration. So its 10% more EHP against physical attacks (not 11%).
Again, wrong. I said vs. physical. AND it IS 11%

1/0.9=1.11
11%

Quote:
Second, it doesnt apply to Hp because HP is your starting point, the value you calculate with <.<.
HP still effects EHP. Do you not the concept?

If you have three values you multiply to get PEHP (physical effective HP) HP, Dodge multiplier and armour multiplier, then how each of them stacks is equally relevant. Stacking HP increases your EHP


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Aspartem

Senior Member

09-30-2009

Quote:
Nope, they've given the formula they use, otherwise I would have asked for it before commenting on the relative merits, 100 armour is 50% reduction, 200 is 2/3rd reduction etc.
Kay. A non-linear armor is in my eyes a stupid idea :/ Well, i guess we wont change that now, rahter soon before the release.

Quote:
Again, wrong. I said vs. physical. AND it IS 11%

1/0.9=1.11
11%
Wtf is the 1/0.9 for? Ok, ill try to explain it in words. If i need 100 hits to kill champ A who has 0% dodge, i'll need 110 if he has 10% dodge. Because 10% means, that mathematicaly 1 out of ten hits is dodged, means i've to hit him 10% more because of those 10% dodge. And not 11%.

Quote:
HP still effects EHP. Do you not the concept?

If you have three values you multiply to get PEHP (physical effective HP) HP, Dodge multiplier and armour multiplier, then how each of them stacks is equally relevant. Stacking HP increases your EHP
HP does not "affect" the concept. It is the base of the concept. You multiply armor, mr etc. with HP. So if you stack more lifepoints, you'll have to do a new calculation based on the new HP. So it doesnt "affect" it, its the pillar of everything so to speak.
Of course more HP means more EHP <-<


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Kingreaper

Senior Member

09-30-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspartem View Post
Kay. A non-linear armor is in my eyes a stupid idea :/ Well, i guess we wont change that now, rahter soon before the release.
WC3 had non-linear armour.

Armour in this is pretty much linear.



Quote:
Wtf is the 1/0.9 for? Ok, ill try to explain it in words. If i need 100 hits to kill champ A who has 0% dodge, i'll need 110 if he has 10% dodge. Because 10% means, that mathematicaly 1 out of ten hits is dodged, means i've to hit him 10% more because of those 10% dodge. And not 11%.
Except 10% of the extra 10% you have to hit him are dodged too, and 10% of those, so 11.11111111....%= 1/(1-0.1)


Let's try a more obvious case: is 50% dodge = 50% extra EHP?


Quote:
HP does not "affect" the concept. It is the base of the concept. You multiply armor, mr etc. with HP. So if you stack more lifepoints, you'll have to do a new calculation based on the new HP. So it doesnt "affect" it, its the pillar of everything so to speak.
Of course more HP means more EHP <-<
Yes, more HP makes more EHP, just like more armour does. and that is relevant to any EHP discussion.


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Aspartem

Senior Member

09-30-2009

Quote:
WC3 had non-linear armour.

Armour in this is pretty much linear.
In Wc3 every additional armor point gives you 6% more EHP. *SearchesThread*
This is from the PlayDota-Forums:

Quote:
Armor Stacking

It is generally conceived that armor gets less and less effective the more you have (since the extra damage reduction gets less and less). That a Plate Mail gives you less extra protection from attacks if you already have 20 armor than if you would have only 5. This is false. If one Plate Mail makes the hero survive 3 extra attacks, than 4 Plate Mails will make the hero survive a total of 12 extra attacks before dying. Each Plate Mail gives the same amount of extra protection, which is in this case 3 more attacks before dying.

Proof:
Consider a hero with 1000 hp and 0 armor. To kill it one needs to deal at least 1000 damage to it.

If we give the hero 10 armor, which is 37.5% damage reduction, every attack would only deal 62.5% of the original value (100% - 37.5% = 62.5%). To kill it now, one needs to deal 1600 damage (1600 * 0.625 = 1000). You could say that the hero now have 600 more effective hp (EHP).

If we instead give the hero 20 armor, which is 54.5% damage reduction. The damage multiplier is now 45.5%. The damage needed to kill would increase to 2200 (2200 * 0.455 = 1000). The increase in EHP is 1200, twice the amount as given by only 10 armor.
Every armor point adds an additional 6% of your maximum HP to your EHP.
That's what i mean with linear.
And.. its the same in Lol. 100 armor is 1000 Ehp and 200 armor is 2000 Ehp. So 1 Armor = 1% Ehp
Thats comfortable to calculate.

Quote:
Except 10% of the extra 10% you have to hit him are dodged too, and 10% of those, so 11.11111111....%= 1/(1-0.1)
Duh, cpt. obvious to the rescue. Sry, it's 3:45am here! ^^

Quote:
Yes, more HP makes more EHP, just like more armour does. and that is relevant to any EHP discussion.
Ahm, thats one weird way to say it and partially wrong. Usually EHP is calculated in % and then applied to the value or calculated with the value. So the actual HP don't matter, if its 1000 or 10000 HP, armor will protect both values the same. So does dodge, so does MR.
I don't know who to say it more clearly :/
The Factors MR, Arm and Dodge do not change their behavior if the variable HP changes. You could change HP with X. And X is unrelevant, but for every X there'll be an EHP Y.
More HP equals in a bigger EHP value, but its not more EHP.
That's what i meant when i said, it's the basis of calculations.

EDIT: Just as a sidenote: I still agree with your changes to the stat dodge. Well, partially.
1. Let it stack multiplicative
2. We shouldn't be allowed to dodge towers.

Just to mention the topic again


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Kingreaper

Senior Member

10-01-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspartem View Post
In Wc3 every additional armor point gives you 6% more EHP. *SearchesThread*
This is from the PlayDota-Forums:

That's what i mean with linear.
And.. its the same in Lol. 100 armor is 1000 Ehp and 200 armor is 2000 Ehp. So 1 Armor = 1% Ehp
Thats comfortable to calculate.
Ah, right, your description earlier sounded non-linear, but I knew LoL's armour system was linear.

Sorry, it was about 2am here

Quote:
Duh, cpt. obvious to the rescue. Sry, it's 3:45am here! ^^

Ahm, thats one weird way to say it and partially wrong. Usually EHP is calculated in % and then applied to the value or calculated with the value. So the actual HP don't matter, if its 1000 or 10000 HP, armor will protect both values the same. So does dodge, so does MR.
I don't know who to say it more clearly :/
If you calculate EHP as a % that is true. If you calculate it as a avalue (much more useful IMO) then HP directly affects it. For example, if you have 10,000 HP, every 1 armour gives 100 EHP. If you have 1,000, every 1 gives you 10 EHP.
Quote:
The Factors MR, Arm and Dodge do not change their behavior if the variable HP changes. You could change HP with X. And X is unrelevant, but for every X there'll be an EHP Y.
More HP equals in a bigger EHP value, but its not more EHP.
A bigger EHP =/= more EHP?
That's very unintuitive.

If someone wants to increase their EHP vs Jax lets say, would adding HP do so? Of course. And that's why HP increases EHP.


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Brad

Member

10-01-2009

Phantom Dancer Stack FTW