Erebus, Lord of Shadows

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Drake O Dagger

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentSounds View Post
His e is really op. And like people have said... It is way to hard to guess what % of shadow energy he is at...
Denying vision is actually a really REALLY powerful tool. And I don't think adding more of this into the game is a good idea.
And passives op.
... okay, once again, his CDs were made FACTORING IN HOW MUCH THEY'D BE REDUCED BY E ALREADY! As such, can you explain HOW it's broken? His CDs are insanely long without it, and only slightly better overall in comparison to SIMILAR effects on other champions. And when fighting in sight of a Champion, the buffs are LOST. So, care to explain how the **** they're broken?

/rant

*Takes a breath* Okay, sorry, but seriously, I'm getting so sick of this argument, when I've repeatedly said how its not really broken. You're reacting to it based solely on numbers, not the overall effect or how it works. Managing Shadow Energy is also something I've covered already. I disagree that it would be an issue, on either side. As the Player, your entire game is spent managing the Shadow Energy, as that's the core playstyle, outside of the stealth assassin role that makes this champion who he is. On the enemy's side, they won't care much because when they see him, his CDs are doubled and Shadow Energy won't matter anyway, the skills will be gone after one use for most of the fight. That said, the champion won't be seen by enemies long enough or often enough for them to even know what his Shadow Energy is. Shadow Energy is NOT something to base counter-play off of. That would be like trying to base counter-play off some of the more unusual "resource" mechanics (which aren't always the actual resource), which I really doubt you'd do.

Denying vision is something that will be on more champions regardless, as they'll eventually have another champion with that effect, guaranteed. Will it be rare? Of course. But if they're gonna keep releasing more and more champions, eventually there will be more.

And finally, as I've said in all my threads, saying "X is op" causes me to basically ignore the statement, as unless you are going to provide evidence and alternatives or suggestions, most of the time, that statement doesn't help in the least. Please be a bit more specific and I might actually be able to fix it so it's not "op".


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Drake O Dagger

Senior Member

02-13-2013

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MiaoLong

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake O Dagger View Post
Somehow I feel that part of what I said was missed. People are SUPPOSE to manage the resource. That's the core element of the champion's entire kit. I think you're overestimating how hard it would really be.
What I'm trying to tell you is that, having played a champion with an energy resource (heat) that is very similar to your idea, your idea is extremely unwieldly, adds undue amount of burden of knowledge to every playing, and adds a great amount of complexity without a lot of depth.

If you seriously would like the champion to be feasible in the game proper, you need to work on reducing the complexity of this guy while maintaining or increasing the depth of his kit. Yes, that probably will mean a total skill rework



Also-- designing a champion solely with the idea of removing counterplay with what is essentially Teemo shrooms that snare you-- is extremely unfun. You might have the time of your life racking up kills, but it's simply frustrating for your vicitims since they don't feel they have a way to respond, and therefore, play against your tactics. Such a champion, if not crushed by the complexity of his kit, would quickly become like pre-rework Eve or Darius-- a champion that just only ever feels overpowered or underpowered, even when the numbers are balanced. That's the lack of counterplay at work.

I highly recommend you watch this video here. It's segment based off of Zileas' design philosophy of counter-play.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/counter-play


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Drake O Dagger

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaoLong View Post
What I'm trying to tell you is that, having played a champion with an energy resource (heat) that is very similar to your idea, your idea is extremely unwieldly, adds undue amount of burden of knowledge to every playing, and adds a great amount of complexity without a lot of depth.

If you seriously would like the champion to be feasible in the game proper, you need to work on reducing the complexity of this guy while maintaining or increasing the depth of his kit. Yes, that probably will mean a total skill rework



Also-- designing a champion solely with the idea of removing counterplay with what is essentially Teemo shrooms that snare you-- is extremely unfun. You might have the time of your life racking up kills, but it's simply frustrating for your vicitims since they don't feel they have a way to respond, and therefore, play against your tactics. Such a champion, if not crushed by the complexity of his kit, would quickly become like pre-rework Eve or Darius-- a champion that just only ever feels overpowered or underpowered, even when the numbers are balanced. That's the lack of counterplay at work.

I highly recommend you watch this video here. It's segment based off of Zileas' design philosophy of counter-play.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/counter-play
What you're talking about isn't just a rework of his skills, its completely destroying the entire concept of the champion. I would be making a new champion that wouldn't have any of the elements that inspired this champion's concept at all, which was an assassin that actually assassinated with stealth. I find it hard to swallow after 10 pages where nothing like this was even brought up. What you're basically saying is I wasted my time making this champion, and the concept behind him is flawed. I feel there can be counter-play as he is, but whatever. I won't remake this champion, so he'll probably be another abandoned champion since apparently its impossible to make an assassin that tries to not be seen till it goes for the kill.


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MiaoLong

Senior Member

02-13-2013

I never said that you needed to destroy the concept. Part of the challenge is finding out what made this champion so compelling while working him into something playable. Creative desginers do this ALL the time. They come up with some amazing idea and everyone loves it but they find that what they imagined is not feasible anymore, so they have to scrap most of it. Don't marry yourself to the numbers.


But seriously, dude, let go of the damn ten pages thing. If you can't take legititmate critiscm after ten pages of people just telling you how amazing you are then you need to think long and hard about what you're trying to be and what you're trying to do with your work.


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Drake O Dagger

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaoLong View Post
I never said that you needed to destroy the concept. Part of the challenge is finding out what made this champion so compelling while working him into something playable. Creative desginers do this ALL the time. They come up with some amazing idea and everyone loves it but they find that what they imagined is not feasible anymore, so they have to scrap most of it. Don't marry yourself to the numbers.


But seriously, dude, let go of the damn ten pages thing. If you can't take legititmate critiscm after ten pages of people just telling you how amazing you are then you need to think long and hard about what you're trying to be and what you're trying to do with your work.
It's more that I'm pissed that I basically have to redo the whole damn thing or let him die. I'm not creative enough to do a remake like that without inspiration, so odds are this is now a dead champion concept. I don't think I'll be able to fix the champion any time soon, at the very least.

Also, you make it sound like I'm trying to be a professional champion creator or something. I do this for fun and as a creation exercise, nothing more.


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Drake O Dagger

Senior Member

02-19-2013

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DarthDevor

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Passive: Sounds a little OP to me simply because if he takes creep(Minion Monster, etc) damage he can become invisible. That seems a little op but the fade time does balance it out a bit.

Q- I like this skill a lot, but it does become hard to use in brush. May I ask if this counts for monster as well because you could mess up someone's baron with this is it isn't.

W- I like this skill, but I think the shadow hunter has too much health at early stages so it is slightly op.

E- I like this skill, but the fact that it grows makes it OP in my opinion.

R- I like this skill. No nerfs seen possible unless you want to become UP


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BigBearKatapa

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Like it, he seems kinda weak though


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Let's get right into it.


-Passive- A lot of different things going on here so I'll have to break it down.

-1- Your wording is kinda funny (Effective range) But this is very effective. Although halfing the range of targeted spells could be a tad OP.
-2- So he's invisible to all but pink wards on the mini-map? Or any wards?
-3- Total stealth. Just how it should be.

All in all, this is a pretty effective passive. More so then most.

-Q- This puts Teemo to shame...Incredibly annoying ability for the enemy even if it doesn't reveal them. However I wouldn't make it uncastable when you're in between 45-55. That could gimp you quick a bit when you're in a stick situation.

-W- I like it. No complaint here.

-E- Very nice and very creative. Very disruptive and it packs a fair punch too.

-R- The additional AD you get from this seems like a ton to me. I'd tone it down a little bit but other then that this is a pretty good steroid ultimate.


All in all, this is a very creative and well thought out concept. Definitely worth a +1
I hope I was of some help. ^^