[Feedback] 150+ Games of Rage

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ShadowOrigin

Senior Member

09-30-2009

I've been waiting a while to post any real feedback on this forum, trying to make sure I understand the game a little better before I randomly start spouting off accidental flame bait and unwarranted OP calls. I am currently at 91 wins and 67 losses, which likely makes me quite the average player. While 158 games may pale in comparison to what some veterans may have, I consider it a decent jump off point. Moving along.

[Champions]
Only going to be discussing champions that I feel need tweaking. Many will not be mentioned, I feel that most champions are generally balanced. There are a few, such as Jax and Sion, I have not really played games as, since they did not appeal to me. However, after seeing other people play them enough, it's quite easy to tell that those heroes are only strong in the right hands. I'll also not mention recently released champions, as they've seen no tweaking. On to the champions:

Amumu Serious little tank, quite the damage dealer despite being a tank. Needs some tweaking on a few things, such as ultimate stunning for so long while also dealing decent damage, especially combined with despair.

Ashe Her ultimate seems like it needs a slightly longer CD. As discussed on the forums already, also needs to have mana costs on almost every skill increased.

Morgana As has been discussed many times on this forum, black shield is far too good for such a small CD and mana cost. I also feel that dark binding shouldn't be nearly a 3s stun at level 1. I don't mind its max stun duration, but its minimum stun duration feels too strong for what else it brings to the table. It should scale up from a 1s stun just like everyone else.

Singed I feel that his poison is too good at destroying creep waves for such a small mana cost, via toggling it on and off right away. It feels like this ability would be better balanced if it cost mana to activate for a set period of time, with the cool down matching exactly when it stops spewing poison. The mana cost doesn't need to be that high, just something more than the 10~15 a smart player would use to hit entire waves with it right now. I very rarely see occasions where this really needs to be a toggled ability.

Teemo Mushrooms need lower sight range, or some other form of tweaking. A good Teemo can help his team control the entire map with appropriately placed mushrooms. Potent land mines should not also give such amazing overall map sight. Other than his mushrooms, he feels about right as an anti-carry. While wards can be purchased in order to have some map control, buying enough to achieve the same effect as several mushrooms can be rather costly over the course of a game.

Zilean I love Zilean. He will be my first champion skin with the pre-order RP. I feel every future support hero should be as good as Zilean. While others are great, and better at some roles, I'll always have a special place for Zilean.

[Gameplay]
While this is the Champion Feedback section of the forums, I feel that these points fit in. Most of the elements of the gameplay in this feel very solid, so there are only a few points to bring up, and I'll keep them brief.

Late-game champions are a far better pick than early game champions. Games very rarely end before or near the 30m mark, meaning most of the time late game champions are going to be the best choice to use. Early game champions are supposed to be better at ganking while they have the upper hand, thus leading to a better late game. This sounds great in theory, but in all my games I have only seen this properly executed twice, and the teammates I was with did nothing but complain about the opposing team being "OP" while doing nothing to try to stop it. Both of these occurrences were within my first 50 games. While I know I am not highest in the ELO range, with 91W/67 Loss, it seems like it would only get less likely for an early-game champion strategy to work the higher you go.

Stuns and disables feel far too necessary unless you greatly out-level the enemy, or have much better tactics. This truly is a minor thing, given that they are so plentiful, but the point remains. It's mostly a small nuisance to me, but it is part of my feedback on the champions in general.

Elixirs do not feel worth the risk you take purchasing them. Most of the items in this game feel like they could serve some purpose in some of the roles champions need to play, and I've seen basically every single one used, except for elixirs. In all the games I've played, I've only seen elixirs used a handful of times. I'm not really sure what could be done to enhance these. The only one that feels perfect is the Oracle's Elixir, which is only useful against three champions, four with Shaco coming up.

Assists should be given for any thing a hero does to assist killing another hero, not just for doing some damage before they die. While I understand this is the simplest route to go with right now, I'd like to see support spells giving assists somewhere down the line, such as Zilean's time warp, Taric and Soraka's heals, or Twisted Fate's destiny, among others such as the summoner spells. This is low priority, as in most encounters you should have enough time to deal some form of damage to the enemy, however, there are instances where you simply cannot deal any damage before you're able to damage a champion, particularly if they die too fast to your team killing them.

[Conclusion]
I feel like I should have a lot more information to post here, but honestly, this game is very well developed for the fact it is still in the beta phases. I have other minor issues with the game, but it is better that Riot continues spending their time fixing bigger issues that impede gameplay across the board, such as Twisted Fate's double cards, rather than work on little things.

I have enjoyed this game very much in the time I have played it, as have the friends I play with on occasion. I hope to see the game thrive and develop loads of new features to keep it interesting for many years to come.


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gutter

Senior Member

10-01-2009

Just thought I'd give you some feedback on your feedback...

Amumu - Believe it or not (well, I guess you wouldn't have a reason to believe either way but if you knew me you'd find this surprising), I haven't actually played Amumu yet. However, whenever I see one on the other team I moan. His stuns (both skill shotted and AoE) are bad enough without the fact that they all lead to a large amount of damage. That said, I don't think he's an overwhelming force and that if anything he should only be scaled back a little bit.

Ashe - Yes on the higher cooldown for the ultimate. Given its versatility and power, I frequently find myself in disbelief at its short cooldown. As for the mana costs, I'm inclined to agree, but I don't feel knowledgeable enough about it to really comment.

Morgana - Yes, yes, and yes on the Black Shield. I'm not even opposed to its exact mechanic (though I'm not opposed to tweaking that either) but its cooldown is way too short. Dark Binding I think is okay as is given its skillshot nature and the variety of ways to move yourself or get out of it in the game. I'm not completely opposed to a shorter duration, I just don't think that changing the min isn't really necessary. She doesn't really have any escape mechanisms though, so I feel like the long min duration is almost necessar.

Singed - I disagree on this one under the premise that it's not really broken so I don't really think it needs to be fixed. It makes sense as a toggled ability in the sense that it's kind of a valve. Singed releases the gas for as long as he needs it then shuts it off. If he's just clearing minions then that won't be very long. If he's running from an enemy champion it'll probably be a good deal longer. I don't think that upping the mana requirement will do much to benefit Singed himself or balance as a whole.

Teemo - I always thought that his mushrooms should have sight equal to their detonation range, so agree here.

Late/Early Game Champions - I agree and disagree. On the agree side, I find that playing Annie in a game that's evenly matched basically means I'm a stun switch once we get into the late game. On the disagree side, I feel like most champions have good endgame potential. Tanks are notorious for being beastly endgame, carries obviously shine endgame, and support are equally important at all phases of the game. Most of the early/mid game gankers (i.e. Ashe) are effective enough late game so as to not negate their early game benefits. I think that instead of tweaking the way the matches play out so that early game ganking is equally important to end game ownage, the champions that excel at ganking should be given some extra tools so that come late game they can at least feel marginally useful.

Stuns/Diables - I agree that they feel necessary but that there are plenty of them to go around. The very nature of a stun/disable, though, almost creates this necessity if they are implemented in the game. As such, I don't know how one would "fix" this issue without removing them entirely or significantly reducing their duration/effect.

Elixirs - From my understanding, Elixirs are accepted as extremely potent, especially early game, but not widely used. In fact, with the patch that's just about to be released Riot actually nerfed them a bit and made them less potent at lower levels. I think that the Elixirs are plenty strong, just that human psychology starts to take over making them fear wasted gold, and so players don't buy them very often.

Assists - Yeah, in a perfect world assists would be much more accurate than they are, but luckily scoreboard k/d/a doesn't really matter for anything. Influence points are going to be fixed to much more accurately reward you for your overall contribution and not just k/d/a. In theory, assists as a statistic are pretty much useless anyway. They basically are only there to say, "I was there, I swear!" and make you feel better for not getting killing blows.

But I agree, the game is great.


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TheHeretic

Senior Member

10-01-2009

Don't bother playing support heroes in solo games, just play carries.


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Col Jack Oniell

Member

10-01-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by gutter View Post
They basically are only there to say, "I was there, I swear!" and make you feel better for not getting killing blows.
What about when you do ALL the freaking damage as a melee just to have a twitch or ashe come running in and fire 1 cheap shot and steal the kill.

Its frustrating and ridiculous that those arseholes get the credit.


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RamboBatman

Senior Member

10-01-2009

A couple of thoughts:
1) Black Shield: yeah, its really good but, I think that even if mana and CD need to be changed the idea behind the ability is sound. I think the game needs more defensive abilities, mainly things that counter the ubiquitous stuns and snares. Black Shield is only really broken if you compare it to Sivir's spell shield. I'd much rather they give that a buff than give the BS a nerf.
2) Teemo: he's a pain that clearly didn't need the buff he recieved last patch but, the buff certainly isn't what makes him such an annoyance. Mushrooms should just have a timer on them so they explode automatically after some time (5-10 mins. maybe?) Alternatively, there could be a cap on the max number of shrooms so that when you placed the newest one after say, 10, the oldest one explodes. Basically, there needs to be something limiting the number of shrooms on the map.
3) Killstealing: While it might seem crappy that your team can come in and last hit a champ that you beat down to 5% hp it only affects the game in a few ways. First, it affects your K/D ratio. Since your K/D ratio is meaningless, this only affects the whiniest of players. Second, there are a few items which give you buffs when you score a kill. If you have one (I said a few but, are there any besides Soulstealer?) of these items, let your team know and they should at least try and let you get the final blows. Third, and most important, is the bonus gold recieved from ending an opponent's killstreak. Clearly, this gold should be divided among the players contributing to the kill in the same way as the regular gold. If they fixed only that final issue then people complaining about KSing really wouldn't have a leg to stand on.


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Aknar

Senior Member

10-01-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOrigin View Post

Elixirs do not feel worth the risk you take purchasing them. Most of the items in this game feel like they could serve some purpose in some of the roles champions need to play, and I've seen basically every single one used, except for elixirs. In all the games I've played, I've only seen elixirs used a handful of times. I'm not really sure what could be done to enhance these. The only one that feels perfect is the Oracle's Elixir, which is only useful against three champions, four with Shaco coming up.
giving stealth detection on the entire map and increasing the price to about 600 gold would solve the problem,and make the reward worth the risk


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Aknar

Senior Member

10-01-2009

I think the kill should go to the hero that did the most total damage to the dead enemy,getting kills based on last hits is just annoying,and this will stop heroes like CM,twich,ashe,etc to sit there looking at you and waiting to last hit


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Auralynx

Senior Member

10-01-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOrigin View Post
Assists should be given for any thing a hero does to assist killing another hero, not just for doing some damage before they die. While I understand this is the simplest route to go with right now, I'd like to see support spells giving assists somewhere down the line, such as Zilean's time warp, Taric and Soraka's heals, or Twisted Fate's destiny, among others such as the summoner spells. This is low priority, as in most encounters you should have enough time to deal some form of damage to the enemy, however, there are instances where you simply cannot deal any damage before you're able to damage a champion, particularly if they die too fast to your team killing them.
I'm pretty sure, though I may be wrong, that I've gotten assists with Fiddlesticks for nothing but using Terrify. It's very possible that I attacked or had crows bounce to the champions in question, though.


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Aura

Senior Member

10-01-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by gutter View Post

Assists - [Expunged] They basically are only there to say, "I was there, I swear!" and make you feel better for not getting killing blows.
No one has mentioned it, but don't assists give gold? Not as much as an actual killing blow, but still enough to help you along. That's pretty important to me.


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PuppetSoul

Senior Member

10-01-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOrigin View Post
Elixirs do not feel worth the risk you take purchasing them. Most of the items in this game feel like they could serve some purpose in some of the roles champions need to play, and I've seen basically every single one used, except for elixirs. In all the games I've played, I've only seen elixirs used a handful of times. I'm not really sure what could be done to enhance these. The only one that feels perfect is the Oracle's Elixir, which is only useful against three champions, four with Shaco coming up.
This is mostly because the people that you play with are terrible.

Oracle Elixir is (was?) extremely overpowered. You obtain gold faster than in Dota, yet even in Dota a Gem costs 700, takes up an item slot, and drops when you die (causing a potential 1700+ gold shift to the enemy). Here, the shift is roughly half that, and is so crushing that I almost always go sight-pot as my second item if the opponents have Teemo, Twitch and/or Evelynn on their team.


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