[Guide] Veigar, The Tiny Master of HADOKEN!

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Rokudan

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The Council

11-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonodaman View Post

1. I never get sorc boots, well, almost never on any caster... I get the mastery for 15magic pen, is it archaic knowledge or something? takes 9 mastery points... which is the same as the sorc boots. then i make up rest of magic pen in game with either void staff for enemies with more than 100 magic res, or abysmal for those with less. I much rather mercury's boots for shorter stuns and slows on me, and shorter stuns = more survival and more casting or dodge boots with dodge runes if vs. dps heroes.

Don't forget that boots are magic PENETRATION, and how it differs from REDUCTION. Magic penetration comes into effect after % based penetrations, and magic reduction goes first, but can bring a target below 0 magic resist. Bringing a target below 0 is a significant damage increase against anyone, not just those with mr. The way that magic resist works is best explained in effective hp. Effective hp is how much damage you will need to do to kill them. Each single magic resist increases a person's effective hp by 1%. A person with 100 magic resist has double their actual hp in effective hp.

For instance, say you do 500 damage with a spell. Your opponent has 2500 hp. If your opponent has 100 magic resist, they have 5000 effective hp, you will need to hit them with 10 spells.

Conversely, say they didn't buy magic resist, instead they bought hp. So this opponent has 3500 hp but only 30 base magic resist. If you can use magic reduction to bring them down to -30 instead, they will have 30% less effective hp. 30% of 3500 is 1050. 3500-1050 = 2450 = 5 spells.

This is all just for reference, not strict examples. Also for reference, armor works in the exact same way.

Magic reduction can bring a target below 0
Magic penetration can't.


However, since the calculations are in this order:

-Magic Reduction (Abyssal Scepter, Fiddlesticks)
-% Magic Penetration (Archaic Knowledge, Void Staff)
-Magic Penetration (Runes, Sorceror's Boots)

Each has their own place. Reduction (things that affect character sheets before any attack is even thrown) can bring people into the negative, which is a HUGE bonus, but these are always calculated first. % penetration is hugely beneficial because magic resist is easy to get. Base MR + Aegis + banshee are all extremely common, and void staff can chew those apart. In tandem with the % penetration, flat penetration comes last. Magic pen can't reduce below 0, but is quite useful because it doesn't come until after the % based. This means that overall more is penetrated.

I still think boots are amazing because of the penetration. It works well all game, especially shining late. It doesn't tread on void staff (which is a huge damage upgrade with how common MR is), and is overall a bigger damage upgrade than even the previous 33 AP was.


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MammothWaffle

Adjudicator

11-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roku View Post
(This is all AFAIK. Pretty sure this is all accurate)

Don't forget that boots are magic PENETRATION (iirc). Not reduction. This means that this can bring their magic resist BELOW 0. This is a significant damage increase against anyone, not just those with mr. The way that magic resist works is best explained in effective hp. Effective hp is how much damage you will need to do to kill them. Each single magic resist increases a person's effective hp by 1%. A person with 100 magic resist has double their actual hp in effective hp.

For instance, say you do 500 damage with a spell. Your opponent has 2500 hp. If your opponent has 100 magic resist, they have 5000 effective hp, you will need to hit them with 10 spells.

Conversely, say they didn't buy magic resist, instead they bought hp. So this opponent has 3500 hp but only 30 base magic resist. If you can use magic pen to bring them down to -30 instead, they will have 30% less effective hp. 30% of 3500 is 1050. 3500-1050 = 2450 = 5 spells.

This is all just for reference, not strict examples. Basically stating how effing amazing magic penetration is, and magic reduction isn't bad either. (Also for reference, armor works in exactly the same way for phys) These rules are:

Magic reduction can't bring a target below 0
Magic penetration can.

These calculations are in this order:

-Magic Reduction (Abyssal Scepter, Fiddlesticks)
-% Magic Penetration (Arcane Mastery, Void Staff)
-Magic Penetration (Runes, Sorceror's Boots)

So yea...magic pen runes and sorc shoes are pretty damn sweet.


You have it reversed. Magic reduction, like armor reduction, brings below 0 whereas Magic Penetration and Armor penetration do not go below 0.


Think of it this way, if there's no resistance whats there to penetrate?


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WinterAyars

Senior Member

11-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roku View Post
Magic reduction can't bring a target below 0
Magic penetration can.
Other way around actually.

Penetration will only go down to 0, but if you get actual reduction (say from Abyssal Scepter) it could bring the target below 0. That said, if you get percent-based reduction (Void Staff and to lesser extent Archaic Knowledge) it makes straight reduction less effective and spell penetration more effective.

But yeah, what Roku said.


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Rokudan

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The Council

11-23-2009

Ah yea, I was backwards on what can go below 0, but the order should be correct.

Gonna edit it to be correct


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WinterAyars

Senior Member

11-23-2009

Yeah, everything else is right (i believe).


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Dunrambai

Junior Member

11-23-2009

So the way you're putting it the sorc boots cant bring them below 0 so i wont use them unless enemy has a significant amount of MR. Yes you can switch to have more reduction if enemies have high MR but talent and runes give enough to get by until u see someone with a force of nature or something. Then I would still proly get the void staff first. Void staff doesnt go in my build unless i see some banshee veils and such.


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Rokudan

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The Council

11-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunrambai View Post
So the way you're putting it the sorc boots cant bring them below 0 so i wont use them unless enemy has a significant amount of MR. Yes you can switch to have more reduction if enemies have high MR but talent and runes give enough to get by until u see someone with a force of nature or something. Then I would still proly get the void staff first. Void staff doesnt go in my build unless i see some banshee veils and such.
food for thought: without any "high profile" items, with just merc treads and aegis aura, a champ is sitting at, on average, 105 magic res. That's not including chalice, which is another 40 magic res. All cheap items and you can have around 145 mag res. Also really common items.


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Solo Mid Nasus

Senior Member

11-23-2009

I've been working on my veigar recently and was wondering how you usually deal with an Corki/Tristana in a solo lane. I can't seem to keep up or hold the lane at all against a Corki then just end up being outleveled and farmed. Thanks!


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Isamaru

Member

11-24-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudBoy View Post
I've been working on my veigar recently and was wondering how you usually deal with an Corki/Tristana in a solo lane. I can't seem to keep up or hold the lane at all against a Corki then just end up being outleveled and farmed. Thanks!
I'm not sure how other people play against them but when i solo lane with them i focus on last hitting up a storm to hit 100 ap as soon as possible. if i do my job right by the time i go back for my first shop run (lvl 6) ill have enough ap to start taking big chunks out of there health.

Like Roku said one of the most important things early game is making them think your weaker then you actually are. once you have the ap to do some damage start nuking them every 4 seconds with baleful. then finish them off with a primordial and they become your feeding ground.

If you gank them at least once before lvl 10 you will almost never get out lvled by anyone in the game. just play smart bide your time and when you see an opening take it.

Edit: So i just wanted to report a crazy game i was in.

30 3 11
1020 ap final

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...862/1020ap.jpg
(sorry if the link is small but you can get the idea from seeing it.)


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Solo Mid Nasus

Senior Member

11-25-2009

What good Corki/Ashe/Trist players do in the lane is once creep engage they position themselves more towards ur side so everytime u go in for a last hit they harrass you with volley/phosporous and I really dont have any offensive means to push them back to their creep line so i can get my last hits with baleful rolling..