Casters vs Non-Casters

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jozu

Member

09-29-2009


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Amunz

Member

09-29-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by wootini View Post
ahhh Wall o' Text!

I am starting to agree with you on this... I have seen caster pwn face early on, but by the time we are all 18, I would have 100ish magic resist sometimes on my Sad Mummy and i would laugh at them trying to kill me...
not too sure if they people i am playing sucked or if it needs a little change...i wouldn't say much though...but a little. I guess we will see what everyone has to say.

1. Casters are suppose to be very good Lv.1-12, after that if they havn't brought the game to a close or close to it ie. lots of kills or good pushing then that is when midgame (carries) and late game (tanks) are suppose to start dominating you.

I don't think the ratios on AP abilities should be raised cause already i have a hard time just gettin 150 to 160 MR by lv.16 in order to not be destroyed by good caster players.

2. Casters shouldn't be able to handle a tank late game, thats the slap in the face for not ending it earlier.

The main issues is Carries destroying tanks late game due to Magic Damage Abilities or Ap stacking


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OctopusDropkick

Senior Member

09-29-2009

This is an absurd argument. Slap in the face for not ending it earlier? The game added AP as an attempt to avoid Dota's one way playstyle. The objective is to keep every team mate as useful as you can keep them during the duration of the game. That's why this was done. There are issues however reaching this objective.


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Nayuki

Senior Member

09-30-2009

So...dropping a 1-2k nuke in the middle of a team fight isn't useful? Rooting/snaring the enemy isn't useful? Applying a myriad of buffs isn't useful?

You basically want to make casters all carries - able to dominate all game long. I hate to break it to you, but I don't think there is a SINGLE caster that has the 'carry' title. Sure, a few of the hybrids do, but none of the true mages. There's a reason for that - they are NOT carries. If you want to win fights 1v1 or 1v2 even end game against comparable players you pick a hero with the carry title (or maybe an assassin, if any of them don't have the carry title).

Mages are not carries. If you are fighting comparable players you make their life hell until they have good MR then you become a support character - aiding your allies greatly with burst damage and utility in team fights but losing you viability for the most part in 1v1.

Guess why? YOU'RE FIGHTING CHARACTERS MEANT TO DOMINATE LATE GAME.

You aren't asking for balance; you're asking to make mages capable of every role in the game. A tank can't become a mage, Ashe/Tristana/etc can't become a nuker instead of a carry, why the hell should a mage become a tank/carry and get their late game abilities while still maintaining all the good early/mid game face raping AND awesome utility ability?

Mages are perfect in their role. If you're really good you even rape face end game in spite of that not being your role.

You want to pwn late game, pick a carry. You're only choosing your own play style limitations and benefits by picking a mage; you know what they are, don't try and change them.


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Shillen

Senior Member

09-30-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amunz View Post
1. Casters are suppose to be very good Lv.1-12, after that if they havn't brought the game to a close or close to it ie. lots of kills or good pushing then that is when midgame (carries) and late game (tanks) are suppose to start dominating you.
Get out of a DotA mindset. Non-casters are not weak in the early game of LoL. Also, this isn't really a ranged vs melee discussion as ranged physical damage heroes do absurd damage late game too. It's a physical damage vs magic damage debate.

I don't think the answer is to increase caster damage late-game, the answer is to decrease physical damage. A fully itemized Yi can kill anyone in 2-5 seconds. That's just dumb.


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OctopusDropkick

Senior Member

09-30-2009

a carry is not a viable argument, it isn't a desired outcome.

riot has already stated that the concept of carry is NOT A DESIRED OUTCOME. it is not a desired mechanic!

it's hard to avoid with differential leveling and item scaling, but it is not a desired outcome guys. this is one of the reasons why they're adding a new caster item in the upcoming patch that'll reduce a min 10% of an enemies HP per casting, to boost late-game caster damage regardless of carry.


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SlyGoat

Member

09-30-2009

There's no disable inducing caster items like in DotA so you are pretty much shafted if you're playing a caster without an inherent disable late game.

That's my only real problem with casters, item selection. Mana/regeneration items aren't choices, they're necessary. The only choice after that is if you want HP to not die or AP to not suck. AP item selection needs a boost since a lot of heroes can't really get much use out of rylai's, lich bane, abyssal scepter, so they're stuck with rod of ages, zhonyas and archangels.

Need more pure AP items for damage casters IMHO. Mejals is great but having more than one isn't viable.

Activated disables like DotA has would be a step towards making casters with no disables better picks, but... It'd also just make casters with disables better at disabling, and CC is way too prevalent already.









Also, casters being dominant early game is not a big deal in LoL at all, IMHO. You still need physical DPS to push towers, and your enemies' carries aren't going to be very hampered by your early game ganks because they don't lose gold for it and aren't out of their lane as long as in DotA. Not to mention, most carries (Yi, Jax, Ashe come to mind), have great skills for ganking as well.


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Arumat

Member

09-30-2009

They added in a new item that does 10% of their hp in damage when you cast a spell. Pretty sure that beats your hp problem. Casters basically have their own bloodrazors now


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Savage

Senior Member

09-30-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyGoat View Post
That's my only real problem with casters, item selection. Mana/regeneration items aren't choices, they're necessary. The only choice after that is if you want HP to not die or AP to not suck.
You're going to suck with or without AP if your opponents buy magic resistance, so you might as well start going for the health as the game progresses.


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10-01-2009

The bigger problem is not so much casters not pumping out enough damage, they can if they stack AP, and do become nasty dps all game with AP stacks. However, stacking AP does not help at all with their survival. There are plenty more items that give survival and damage than there are that give AP and survival--note that there are no armor + AP items, and only 2 high priced HP +AP items.

Survival items can come as early as a starting item for dps (lifesteal). Then they can get a phage for a cheap boost to hp and some damage. They can get a bit more advanced lifesteal item with mixed stats such as AS+lifesteal. They can get a nice item called Madred's Razor which gives them farming power, damage, and armor (also upgrades into a really really nice late game). Casters dont have anything like this sort of damage and survival except high priced items--you could say the glacial shroud is damage and survival since mana gives you damage, but really, it just lets you cast again, but doesnt help you when you need it if you arent a chain caster.


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