Ryze... what are the elusive last 2 items?

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Eledhan

Senior Member

11-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
Hey bud! Ive come to the conclusion that there are quite a few viable choices, more than I really thought.
Yeah, basically, I look at it like this...

Build your core of Tear, Sorc's, Shroud, BV. Then look at the way the game is going and choose between the following:

Upgrade Tear to AA's Staff
Upgrade Shroud to Heart
Build Void Staff
Build Abyssal Scepter
Build Rylai's or RoA's
Build more AA's Staff

I know I'm repeating myself, but there are honestly no other good options...

Need defense against physical damage? Upgrade to Heart
Need defense against magical damage? Build Abyssal
Need defense in general? Build Rylai's / RoA's
Don't need defense, but they have massive MR? Build Void
Don't need defense or penetration? Stack AA's

All other options are simply not as good as these for the various game situations you will find yourself in.

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I personally go 0-9-21 for the Str of Spirit which gives 1 HP/5 per 100 max mana I have. +6 armor/MR is a great use of 6 mastery points as well, much moreso than the awful 1st tier offense. Although it does cause the oddball 12% starting CDR instead of a nice round 15%.
Okay, I just recently switched on this one...here's my reasoning for choosing 9 in offense instead of 9 in defense...

If I spend the 9 in offense, my CDR with JUST Shroud is sitting at like 39.8%. This means I can build Shroud, and leave it there unless I need the passive from Heart, or more armor, without sacrificing that all-important CDR. Plus, I get the all-important mpen for MR stackers. At 100 MR, I will be getting another 10.5 Mpen (after runes & sorc's). That's a nice boost to my dps later in the game.

If I take Defense...I diminish the value of all the other stats I get during my normal build. Both ARM and MR become irrelevant after you get your core items. SoS also becomes irrelevant after early game, since regen isn't useful unless in MASSIVE quantities, or extreme sustain situations, which are rare late game. The case against defensive is further enhanced by my taking Teleport as one of my spells, because I want to spam my abilities to charge Tear and then teleport back to lane if needed.

I also find that 2 HP potions are enough to farm up the 585 to buy my Tear, then I just buy a few more for HP regen needs on my first trip back. Overall, between Tele and my 2 HP potions, I rarely have a need for SoS to kick in for me... I run out of mana first.

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If I could spare a Runepage, I'd take 6 flat CDRs and 3 mana blues instead, change my yellow from armor/MP5 to mana, keep Mpen red, and health/MPen quints.
For runes, Mpen on Red is obvious.

Yellows are really iffy...I don't think Armor is good because he already gets massive armor with items. And since he gets MR too, stacking more HP is the better choice for defensive yellows, imo. If you want Mp5, that's cool too...I tried them, but they are such a waste for early game, and once you get tear, they can't keep up anyway. Just use teleport and spam to handle mana. Because of all that, I take HP per level.

For Blues...I don't want to be FORCED to get Heart just to get CDR to the max of 40%. I'd rather have the option to only upgrade Shroud if I need more defense against physical damage. Therefore, I take all flat CDR on blues. Once I hit 9 and have Shroud, I'm at 39.8% or so CDR (it shows as 40% in character sheet). This allows me to be more flexible in my build even if it means I waste the CDR cost of Heart.

As for Quints...I choose flat Mana because that keeps me in lane longer (about 1.5 more Q's worth of mana) and deals more damage. The only thing I would consider swapping here would be the Mpen quints...which I might try soon. But having those extra 1.5 Q's before running dry can make a big difference in early game skirmishing. The only issue I see with Mpen Quints is that you may be over-penetrating squishies once you get Sorc's...however, you might be able to then justify grabbing Swiftness or Merc's instead. I always find myself a bit too slow to keep up late game, so if I get Void Staff, I always swap out boots for Swiftness.

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I agree with leaving Tear as is. I feel like getting more defense is a more appropriate use of the gold, or countering game-specific issues.
Upgrading it to AA is better than I gave it credit for though. Costs 1800g and provides 100g of mana, 900g of AP (worth about 600g to ryze), and about 100 AP (worth 2000g...1400g to ryze) based on mana. Plus unlocks the tear to go above 600.
Tear can stay there until you are done with BV and Shroud...then you just need to figure out if you can afford to go without more defense and/or penetration. If so, then upgrade into AA's. Fairly simple, imo. Seems we agree!

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I do take Frozen Heart since I don't have my CDR maxed until I do.
Shroud costs 1525, gives 850g of mana, 675g of armor, 600g of CDR.

Upgrading to Heart costs 1225g and adds 100g of mana, 810g of armor, 200g of CDR, and the Aura which adds a -500g AS hoze to all opponents, and doesn't take a slot.
Oh, man...see...I HATE being forced to spend an extra 1225g on something I don't really need the stats for. As an example...

I recently had a game as Ryze where the enemy AD carry was not a threat at all. Why would I want to upgrade to Heart? for mana? I don't need 50 more mana at that point...I'd rather get something that boosts another component of my build, to round out my performance a bit.

In this game, the biggest threat was from enemy magical damage, so I built Abyssal...which helped my team's magical damage, and protected me even further from the enemy team's magical threats. And since my build covers max CDR with just Shroud, I could leave it sitting there until the AD champ became a threat. He never did, though, so I saved 1225g in worthless stats that game.

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Turns out Rod is better than I thought, costing 3000g and providing 2900g worth of value to Ryze (assuming 60% AP value), maxing at 3900g value. Or a 33% efficiency gain when maxed.
RoA's is actually quite good in terms of cost-effectiveness. It adds a little of everything Ryze needs. Only thing is, I think I'd rather have the added benefit of the slow from Rylai's... not sure, though, because the cost effectiveness of RoA's is quite good, with no stacks...with stacks it's supremely good.

The question is whether you want that slow or not. I haven't tried Rylai's on Ryze yet, and I want to...would be interesting to see what happens when you can keep up without having to get Void and swap boots...

It would also mean you could go Abyssal for an absolutely impossible to kill build with tons of DPS.

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Abyssal is surprisingly strong too. Ive considered MPen worth about 2x AP (40 g each), but it may be worth closer to 60 or even 80g per point when you have a high level champion.
The higher your damage output, the stronger MPen becomes, which I did not consider... and since we are talking about 5th and 6th items.
Hence Abyssal costs 2700g, gives 1000g of AP, 855g of MR, 1500ish gold of MPEN. Having a second solid MR item is pretty valuable if the situation warrants. Plus the aura-share effect.
Yep...good item, especially if you get another HP item to go with it.

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Stacking Archangels even works, though I would generally want more defense instead. But I can't deny that +400 mana and 150+ AP for the 5th and 6th items is quite strong. They also improve exponentially somewhat the more you add.
The added Mana and AP combined make it a strong choice...

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So yeah.. there really is no hard and fast rule, and I am expanding my list of viable choices to:

Rod of Ages, Void Staff, Aegis of Legion, Abyssal Scepter, Thornmail, and Archangel Staff.
Hmmm...

I don't think I would bother with Aegis or Thornmail...Only way they will be worth it is if you have a SUPER fed AD carry...but they shouldn't be that hard to kill if they have all that money pumped into dps.

After reading through your entire post and thinking about my responses, I would put my item list as...

Heart for defense against physical damage
Abyssal for a hybrid of damage and defense against magical damage
RoA's for a hybrid of offense and defense against all damage
Rylai's for a hybrid of offense, utility, and defense against all damage
Void Staff for more DPS if you are threatened by a champion that is stacking MR >150
Archangel's for more offense if more Mpen isn't really needed. Either way, I'm upgrading Tear to this end game.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

11-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
The question is whether you want that slow or not. I haven't tried Rylai's on Ryze yet, and I want to...would be interesting to see what happens when you can keep up without having to get Void and swap boots...

It would also mean you could go Abyssal for an absolutely impossible to kill build with tons of DPS.
I was reading back through my post...

This part of my post I'm quoting struck me as profound...

Consider this build...

AA's, Sorc's, Heart, BV, Abyssal, Rylai's

You'll have tons of HP, plenty of Mitigation, a spammable slow, and TONS of DPS. Especially against those champs who haven't gotten any MR yet, or only have a low MR item like Merc's Treads.

This would make you nearly impossible to kill from ANY source of magic, and you're penetrating roughly 50 MR on all targets, as well as helping your team's magical damage. Nobody can escape you, and you still deal all that DPS.

I'm trying this build next game I play Ryze to see how it works. The only thing that would change this is the order in which you build/upgrade into your final 6 items. But anyone with half a brain can figure that part out!


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EMeta

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Senior Member

11-10-2011

I understand this is kinda left-field, but has anyone tried manamune + sheen on ryze? This would trade off some burst for higher sustained damage by adding some pretty beefy AA into the spell mix. The combination is pretty inexpensive, 2375 for both after tear, gives a bit more mana & AP, and bumps up your otherwise atrocious tower attacks. Say, as an alternative to void staff if they build up MR.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

11-10-2011

I think the "tower attack" theory is really bad. Remember that AP also boosts tower attack, and it is very rarely a big deal, nor does it make much of a difference. Certainly not enough to affect itemization.

The whole freaking point of Ryze is that he has very fast casting comboes. he is like a mage machine gun. Rat-a-tat-tat...rat-a-tat-tat.
There just isn't enough time to autoattack inbetween spellcasts, and if you did so, you would invariably lower your actual DPS!
Manamune/sheen is just plain terrible. Sheen only triggers every like 3 seconds or so, and only adds a modest amount of damage.

Lets look at Ryze's 40% CDR combo timing:

40% CDR. Q=2.1 CD, W/E = 8.4 CD.

Q (Q 1.1 sec CD)
W (Q 0.1 sec CD, W 7.4 CD)
..0.1 sec later..
Q (1.1 sec Q, W at 6.3)
E (0.1 Q, 5.3 W, 7.4 E)
..0.1 delay
Q (1.1 Q, 4.2 W, 6.3 E)
R (0.1 Q, 3.2 W, 5.3 E)
.. 0.1 delay
Q (1.1 Q, 2.1 W, 4.2 E)


1.1 seconds later, the entire Q,W,Q,E,Q is basically ready to go again.
Q happens, bringing W to 0 CD and E to 2.1.
Then W, taking E to 1.1.
Then Q 0.1 sec later , bringing E to 0.0 exactly.


So basically your entire Q,W,Q,E,Q,R,Q only has room for 0.1 seconds of wait time...much less than a typical human can pull of anyways.
The only dead time is after that combo where you wait a whopping 1.1 seconds until the next Q,W,Q,E,Q. Then you are out of gas for a while. Another Q every 1.1 seconds until your W/E are up again 4 seconds later or so.

When are you gonna do all this autoattacking and is it really worth sacrificing all the other stuff that the preferred itemization offers?


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Rakaydos

Senior Member

11-10-2011

2.1 seconds per Q. The passive applies to all spells OTHER than the one yo cast to triger it.

Unless there was a buff I missed.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

11-10-2011

As an added note...

Rylai's allows you to ensure you get that first QW in...

Sometimes I find myself not able to land W because I can't get in range of it, but I do get in range of Q...unfortunately, because there is no slow on Q, the target gets further away. This means I never get to actually land W since I never can get in range, so I just Q to make sure I get that last little bit of DPS in. However, if you had Rylai's, you could get the Q off first, then go for the rest of your spell combo.

Just some food for thought on the application of the Rylai's slow...


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Ebonclaw

Senior Member

11-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
Well the splash value is kind of irrelevant. Whether its mana that is boosting the damage or AP, it all gets X% of splash due to your ultimate right? Maybe you are saying that IF E bounces several times and enemy is all together, then it would boost the AP ratio since E is only AP-based. But that is really situational and I'd rather focus on a 1v1 or worst-case scenario.

So while the math is incomplete technically, including splash just further complicates things.

This is not true. The discussion isn't directly a debate between Mana or AP for damage. Your original question was what to get -after- you've already purchased your big mana items, with the supposition that AP isn't necessarily a goal, so you weren't sure where to go from there.

I'm just saying that supposing you don't have a pressing need for major/dedicated defensive items, that AP still gives worthwhile returns, and should not be neglected as its relevance increases heading in to teamfights.

<3


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