Ryze... what are the elusive last 2 items?

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Ebonclaw

Senior Member

11-09-2011

That math doesn't even take into account splash damage from your ult - with 50% splash, one target could get the total effect of up to 4 hits, meaning your 'burst' value could range from 1.55 - 2.6 per AP, depending on bounces - and the majority of what you do to secondary targets is going to benefit more from AP than Mana, in a tightly clustered ult scenario. (And seriously, when is Desperate Power NOT up?)


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

11-10-2011

Well the splash value is kind of irrelevant. Whether its mana that is boosting the damage or AP, it all gets X% of splash due to your ultimate right? Maybe you are saying that IF E bounces several times and enemy is all together, then it would boost the AP ratio since E is only AP-based. But that is really situational and I'd rather focus on a 1v1 or worst-case scenario.

So while the math is incomplete technically, including splash just further complicates things.

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In other news, D0000m argues that Banshee is not core. However, tear,boots,heart don't boost any health and Ryze really needs the health booster to go with his high resists. Even costing 2750g for 2350g of benefits, the 10% damage reduction or spell block are easily worth 1000 gold.
Many people take 21 defense and slog through some bad masteries (0.5 dodge per point is awful, and -1 physical damage per hit is bad too), to get to the vaunted 4% damage reduction. So 10% magical damage reduction seems awesome.

I suppose you could technically get a Negatron and Catalyst for same price then upgrade to Rod and Abyssal. That would work, but Banshee/Odins gets you health,mana, MR, and extra effect all in 1 item for decent cost.


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BeastlyLambo

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Senior Member

11-10-2011

stack 5 roa and boots trololol jk jk void staff and or will might be great items pretty cheap too. If ya need more armor and the active of zhonas i would say go for that. Idk what other items either lol


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Rakaydos

Senior Member

11-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
I suppose you could technically get a Negatron and Catalyst for same price then upgrade to Rod and Abyssal. That would work, but Banshee/Odins gets you health,mana, MR, and extra effect all in 1 item for decent cost.
Personally, after tear Glacial and Sorcs, I get Negation and catalyst, Rod of ages, THEN catalyst banshees. It starts the Rod ticking up earlier (I can usually get to full stacks before game end) and keeps 96% of the MR of Banshee, with two catalysts worth of health and mana to support you.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

11-10-2011

Hey, War.

We meet again on the theorycrafting warfront!

My theory for building Ryze is as follows...

Quote:
9-0-21 with Flash/Teleport
Mpen Marks, HP per Level Seals, Flat CDR Glyphs, Flat Mana Quints
Start with Sapphire Crystal & 2 Health Potions

Upgrade Sapphire Crystal into Tear ASAP
Sorcerer's Boots
Glacial Shroud
Catalyst > Banshee's Veil
From here, you have your core mitigation, you have your CDR, and you have your mana. I'm thinking you should then focus on either more HP, Mana, Penetration, or AP. If you have a super fed opponent, then you MIGHT want to consider ARM or MR to counter their biggest source of damage, but at this point in your build, I'm thinking more raw HP might be better.

If you will notice, I have left Tear and Shroud in their base state. I leave Tear there until I finish the other items on my list because it gains mana faster than AA's staff does, since you don't have to worry about casting 2 spells in a row with it.

I leave Shroud where it is unless there is a hyper AD carry that I can slow their AS down due to Heart's passive. Otherwise, I think Ryze has enough armor to handle the brunt of their damage, since he will be out-damaging most AD champs anyway at almost any point in the game.

This means I have a few options after I upgrade Tear and Glacial (when/if necessary)
Build Void Staff for Penetrating massive MR values (if you do this, I recommend selling Sorc's for Swift)
Build Abyssal Scepter for team Pen (reduction is essentially team pen) and more MR
Build Rylai's Scepter to add a spammable slow to your arsenal while gaining HP
Build more AA's Staff to gain more mana and AP

Choosing any of the above options are great choices, but they are all based on the individual circumstances of each game. I don't think a set rule can be put in place dictating the best item for Ryze. It is possible to have a list of the most viable items, though, and I think that the above items are probably the best...

P.S.
I've never actually tried Rylai's, but after thinking about it, it sure would make a great item on late game ryze, who has difficulty chasing down someone who is running away.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

11-10-2011

Hey bud! Ive come to the conclusion that there are quite a few viable choices, more than I really thought.

I personally go 0-9-21 for the Str of Spirit which gives 1 HP/5 per 100 max mana I have. +6 armor/MR is a great use of 6 mastery points as well, much moreso than the awful 1st tier offense. Although it does cause the oddball 12% starting CDR instead of a nice round 15%.
If I could spare a Runepage, I'd take 6 flat CDRs and 3 mana blues instead, change my yellow from armor/MP5 to mana, keep Mpen red, and health/MPen quints.


I agree with leaving Tear as is. I feel like getting more defense is a more appropriate use of the gold, or countering game-specific issues.
Upgrading it to AA is better than I gave it credit for though. Costs 1800g and provides 100g of mana, 900g of AP (worth about 600g to ryze), and about 100 AP (worth 2000g...1400g to ryze) based on mana. Plus unlocks the tear to go above 600.

I do take Frozen Heart since I don't have my CDR maxed until I do.
Shroud costs 1525, gives 850g of mana, 675g of armor, 600g of CDR.

Upgrading to Heart costs 1225g and adds 100g of mana, 810g of armor, 200g of CDR, and the Aura which adds a -500g AS hoze to all opponents, and doesn't take a slot.

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Turns out Rod is better than I thought, costing 3000g and providing 2900g worth of value to Ryze (assuming 60% AP value), maxing at 3900g value. Or a 33% efficiency gain when maxed.


Abyssal is surprisingly strong too. Ive considered MPen worth about 2x AP (40 g each), but it may be worth closer to 60 or even 80g per point when you have a high level champion.
The higher your damage output, the stronger MPen becomes, which I did not consider... and since we are talking about 5th and 6th items.
Hence Abyssal costs 2700g, gives 1000g of AP, 855g of MR, 1500ish gold of MPEN. Having a second solid MR item is pretty valuable if the situation warrants. Plus the aura-share effect.


Stacking Archangels even works, though I would generally want more defense instead. But I can't deny that +400 mana and 150+ AP for the 5th and 6th items is quite strong. They also improve exponentially somewhat the more you add.



So yeah.. there really is no hard and fast rule, and I am expanding my list of viable choices to:

Rod of Ages, Void Staff, Aegis of Legion, Abyssal Scepter, Thornmail, and Archangel Staff.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

11-10-2011

Personally, my 5th/6th item is nearly always Abyssal Scepter, for many of the reasons already highlighted. Primarily, it helps the entire team's damage output, and I generally vouch for team support over more selfish item choices unless the situation dictates otherwise.

Also, while my armor is typically very high, I almost always grab Sorc Shoes and run MPen runes. With BVeil, that leaves my MR sitting ~75, while my armor is comfortable at 125+... so Abyssal is the natural choice to plug that hole, in my opinion. With the sorc shoes and MPen runes, I'm ignoring 50 MR, which is a greater return than Void Staff will give me on anyone under 120 MR, and perhaps even true damage on anyone foolish enough to ignore MR entirely.

Other rune/boot configurations will likely find Void Staff to give the greater return for MPen, but again that's only for the user, and I prefer the aura.

After that, I'll actually vouch for Rylai's, Rabadon's or Zhonya's, or even Lichbane. I know, they're pure AP items but with the aforementioned build, they have their place. With a loaded AA Staff and Abyssal, I'm already sitting pretty on AP. Rabadon's boosts the teamfight damage of E substantially. Zhonya's gives me the active if I'm taking focus. Rylai's is a permanent slow. Lichbane helps me win more by pushing towers (Q a minion, auto attack tower, Q a minion, auto-attack tower) and giving another 350 mana.

Each dependent on the status of the game. Not that any of the other items mentioned are better or worse choices, just stating my strategy. I don't use RoA because by the time I finish Abyssal, it's too late in the game to top it off. I won't use Void Staff, typically, because I already have 50 flat MPen/Reduction. I haven't thought of Aegis, but that's typically a strong mid-game item and tapers off. Thornmail is very situational. Additional AA Staves... I'm not sure if that will give greater return over Rabadon's at that point, I haven't done the math .


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ManningZ

Member

11-10-2011

Rylai's takes my vote. Spammable slow is very useful. Then either roa, void or wits depending on the situation.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

11-10-2011

I am not so sure about Rylais though. It costs 3150g, provides 1100g worth of AP (at 60% value), and 1250g worth of health. (2350g of stats), so you pay 800 gold for the snare and have a 0% efficiency gain. (compared to a RoA that is cheaper and provides 4k of stats)

I am not so sure the snare is that valuable. Ryze typical combo is Q,W,Q,E,Q,R,Q... then if you wait 1.1 seconds (with 40% CDR), the entire Q,W,Q,E,Q is available again.

So you start every fight with a snare instead of a slow and the space between snare #1 and snare #2 is only about 2 seconds. After that of course you will have about 4 second delays due to no R to continue your combo.

The only real use for the snare is when they are exactly at 675 range, where you hit with Q,E,Q (since W has 625 range), for sniping.

And, if you can't finish your combo, it is nice that every spell you cast has a slow effect. Plus that E can bounce and slow multiple foes.

But still, you lose a good deal of stats efficiency with this route. I may try it out and see if it is worthwhile or not. Right now I feel like raw efficiency is going to be better, but I have an open mind...


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MrJon3s

Senior Member

11-10-2011

Rylais you have armor and alot of mana but hardly any hp and it gives a slow. For your last item I would say trinity or lichbane for ms and auto attacks.


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