A response to your announcement of Summoner Spell changes Riot

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Demonicous

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Senior Member

11-04-2011

In the thread announcing the changes there has been a lot of backlash in regards to this information. Are you guys actually not worried about keeping your playerbase happy? From a business perspective this announcement may actually be that "Suicide Note" we found you guys left us before the company dies.

I made some suggestions that people liked... and I also made OBVIOUS observations about what will happen if these changes actually happen.

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"Click Here to Comment"

Sigh... why bother... you guys at Riot dont pay attention to our responses anyway...

But I'll do it since this because Riot asked me "UMADBRO?" when I actually am...

Nerfing Flash CD I Aprove but the range I do not... there is no point to it if the Range is not significant... whoever thought this Nerf up was tied down to the tracks and the STUPID TRAIN just kept on running over them didnt it?

Nerfing Clairvoyance the way you described it will remove all aspects of intelligent gameplay out the window... the CD does not need a longer cooldown if it is only going to reveal an area for 2 seconds... This is League of Legends... NOT A GAME OF PEEK-A-BOO! If the duration is Nerfd leave the CD alone... if the CD is Nerfd leave the duration alone... Or at least buff the duration for Wards if you guys are gonna mess with us this strongly...

Promote not turning a minion into a super minion makes it worthless.... it has to be able to Siege the lane.... not grant the enemy a slightly tougher minion to deal with that will feed them more gold than a regular minion... and if we have to deal with occasional Super Minions then taking away Fortify is a BIG mistake.

Surge... WTF?!... ok so basically a Rally you cant get away from now... you might as well Maokai's Ultimate move with him in this case if you are going to keep up with the trend of Horrible ideas. Rally you could zone out and re-engage if necessary... Surge will have horrible ramifications... Imagine a team of mediocre players that get on vent and coordinate the usage of 5 Surges in a row perfectly one after another.... An unstoppable Zerg Rush on steroids is what you get... AoE damage wont become a problem at all in this scenario.... DO YOU GUYS ACTUALLY HEAR YOURSELVES OVER THERE!

Heal and Clense Buffs I aprove.

.................................................. .................................................. ....................

Please for the love of god listen to me now if there is going to be only one time you ever do.

1) If Promote is in.... Keep Fortify
2) Surge is a bad idea Period
3) Leave the range on Flash alone
4) Leave the duration on Clairvoyance alone
5) A simple and easy way to balance out summoner spells is as follows:

Increase the cooldowns on the spells by a metric f-ton.... I mean almost double the cooldowns... but make Cooldown Reduction apply to summoner spells as well... which in turn will allow players to assign masteries or buy in game items that make the summoner spell usage more frequent

This change would make summoner spells more clutch to use early game and vital to use only when absolutely necessary.... and it would make for more aggressive usages and exciting action lategame.

Designers need to listen to the players.... bottom line.
I was pissed off when I read this announcement... so some of my digs in my original comment were a bit harsh.

However these changes are a big bad idea... DO NOT IMPLEMENT THEM! For your own sakes.


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corallein

Senior Member

11-04-2011

Yay, exaggeration.

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Originally Posted by Demonicous View Post
Nerfing Flash CD I Aprove but the range I do not... there is no point to it if the Range is not significant...
Jumping over walls is the most important use of Flash. And honestly, the range of it is a little annoying. When it's possible to jump from 1/3 into a lane to all the way next to your tower, ganks against even remotely passive players is incredibly annoying.

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Nerfing Clairvoyance the way you described it will remove all aspects of intelligent gameplay out the window... the CD does not need a longer cooldown if it is only going to reveal an area for 2 seconds... This is League of Legends... NOT A GAME OF PEEK-A-BOO! If the duration is Nerfd leave the CD alone... if the CD is Nerfd leave the duration alone... Or at least buff the duration for Wards if you guys are gonna mess with us this strongly...
You don't play a jungler, do you? If your blue/red gets CVed while you're heading to it, it takes ages for it to go away before you can safely start it. The duration of a CV with the mastery is just too long, and the cooldown also needs to be increased a bit.
The duration nerf shouldn't greatly affect anything, really.

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Promote not turning a minion into a super minion makes it worthless.... it has to be able to Siege the lane.... not grant the enemy a slightly tougher minion to deal with that will feed them more gold than a regular minion... and if we have to deal with occasional Super Minions then taking away Fortify is a BIG mistake.
So Promote does seem super meh. It has nothing to do with Fortify though, which is a worthless spell except for trolling with 5x Fortify.
For that matter, Promote was kinda useless before unless you went 5x Promote-super-tower-pushing-every-time-the-cooldown-is-up.

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Surge... WTF?!... ok so basically a Rally you cant get away from now... you might as well Maokai's Ultimate move with him in this case if you are going to keep up with the trend of Horrible ideas. Rally you could zone out and re-engage if necessary... Surge will have horrible ramifications... Imagine a team of mediocre players that get on vent and coordinate the usage of 5 Surges in a row perfectly one after another.... An unstoppable Zerg Rush on steroids is what you get... AoE damage wont become a problem at all in this scenario....
Without numbers, nothing can be concluded. And what are you going to give up for 5x Surge? Surge won't make someone invincible. Heck, Rally didn't even buff any defensive stats, so why does AOE damage suddenly become a non-issue for Surge-stacking teams?
Oh look, they popped Surge.
/Exhausts all their primary damage dealers and kills them.
Oh look, they popped Surge again, but they have no more damage. So scary.


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Demonicous

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Senior Member

11-04-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by corallein View Post
Yay, exaggeration.

Jumping over walls is the most important use of Flash. And honestly, the range of it is a little annoying. When it's possible to jump from 1/3 into a lane to all the way next to your tower, ganks against even remotely passive players is incredibly annoying.
Initiators like Galio need Flash with a decent range... Malzahar needs Flash as so does Annie... the game is currently balanced around Flash. Some champs need it for intitiations... orthers need it for escapes. You can honestly say goodbye to seeing some champs being played. In addition not all players are atrists with Flash... some end up being mediocre with it... its a skill based summoner spell.


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You don't play a jungler, do you? If your blue/red gets CVed while you're heading to it, it takes ages for it to go away before you can safely start it. The duration of a CV with the mastery is just too long, and the cooldown also needs to be increased a bit.
The duration nerf shouldn't greatly affect anything, really.
If your Blue / Red gets CVd it shouldnt matter... YOUR TEAM SHOULD BACK YOU UP... even in championships if your team is supporting you as a jungler and they are there for you then most of the time the jungle invasion doesnt happen for a fear of feeding the enemy team. Apparently when you jungle all your team mates rush to their outer turrets like moronic selfish basterds instead of being your backup.


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So Promote does seem super meh. It has nothing to do with Fortify though, which is a worthless spell except for trolling with 5x Fortify.
For that matter, Promote was kinda useless before unless you went 5x Promote-super-tower-pushing-every-time-the-cooldown-is-up.
This is how I know you have no idea what you are talking about... Promote was kind of useless before?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvugzSQwaso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUdRzi98BOg&feature=related

It had its uses... even a balanced Promote would be annoying to say the least... and it wouldnt be even considered as a SS again unless it could make a difference. If you have multiple minion waves compunded into one megawave pushing back against an enemy lane a double Promote can make a team capable of a split push with 5 people on one lane and a big wave with promoted minions on another. It probably wont win you the game... but I have a feeling it would make a dent in that lane.

Fortify could be used to counter a promoted wave but Fortify's most important use is to keep champions that towerdive earlygame successfully at bay. Apparently you play a lot of Garen, Tryndamere, and Poppy if you think getting rid of Fortify is a good idea.

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Without numbers, nothing can be concluded. And what are you going to give up for 5x Surge? Surge won't make someone invincible. Heck, Rally didn't even buff any defensive stats, so why does AOE damage suddenly become a non-issue for Surge-stacking teams?
Oh look, they popped Surge.
/Exhausts all their primary damage dealers and kills them.
Oh look, they popped Surge again, but they have no more damage. So scary.
So your team will run 5 Exhausts just to counter 5 Surges? Even now that Exhaust can be removed with Cleanse? AMAZING STRATEGY THERE... There is a quote I want to place here from Forrest Gump but I dont want to insult you. If Surge is in Riot's book something worthwhile to use as a Summoner Spell... it would most likely be as strong or a tiny bit stronger than Rally... WHY?... because Riot apparently wants you to WANT to use it. Looking at it from that perspective. 5 Surge's chained would result in a Zerg Rush on Steroids without a doubt.

Also you forgot to take into consideration that their support is healing the team for more / mitigating more damage... all of the teams stats go up... not just AD and AP... Riot never stated that Surge ONLY buffs the team Offensively.... so you claim it will be easy to take down their main Carry on the first usage? However I think you missed some key elements here in this discussion. Lets not forget about Tanky DPS... apparently in your mind all damage dealers are as squishy as Veigar.


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corallein

Senior Member

11-04-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonicous View Post
Initiators like Galio need Flash with a decent range... Malzahar needs Flash as so does Annie... the game is currently balanced around Flash. Some champs need it for intitiations... orthers need it for escapes. You can honestly say goodbye to seeing some champs being played. In addition not all players are atrists with Flash... some end up being mediocre with it... its a skill based summoner spell.
Saying that they need it is an exaggeration. Certainly, it makes them much stronger. But omg, the offensive and defensive uses of Flash balance it out!
Whether it makes Flash terrible or not is still up for judgement, but I don't think it's as bad as all the trolls on the forums are making it.

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If your Blue / Red gets CVd it shouldnt matter... YOUR TEAM SHOULD BACK YOU UP...
It isn't always possible (or smart) for your teammates to leave their lane. And ganking is also incredibly annoying with the 10 second duration of CV. Even if it doesn't catch you, you can't wait for it to wear off to go back in. 10 seconds is a huge amount of time to lose.

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This is how I know you have no idea what you are talking about... Promote was kind of useless before?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvugzSQwaso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUdRzi98BOg&feature=related
So your examples are... Heimer creep blocking waves so that 10 of them group up together and Promote stacking + heals? You do realize I was specifically NOT talking about Promote stacking?

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It had its uses... even a balanced Promote would be annoying to say the least... and it wouldnt be even considered as a SS again unless it could make a difference. If you have multiple minion waves compunded into one megawave pushing back against an enemy lane a double Promote can make a team capable of a split push with 5 people on one lane and a big wave with promoted minions on another.
Sure, in the case where you get a double wave. And if you're in position to take advantage of it. And you took two promotes. And you didn't already lose the game because of two summoner spell slots used on promote instead of spells that can more directly impact team fights.

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Fortify could be used to counter a promoted wave but Fortify's most important use is to keep champions that towerdive earlygame successfully at bay. Apparently you play a lot of Garen, Tryndamere, and Poppy if you think getting rid of Fortify is a good idea.
I'm wondering how you think Fortify stops Tryndamere and Poppy. And no, I don't play them.

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So your team will run 5 Exhausts just to counter 5 Surges? Even now that Exhaust can be removed with Cleanse? AMAZING STRATEGY THERE... There is a quote I want to place here from Forrest Gump but I dont want to insult you. If Surge is in Riot's book something worthwhile to use as a Summoner Spell... it would most likely be as strong or a tiny bit stronger than Rally... WHY?... because Riot apparently wants you to WANT to use it. Looking at it from that perspective. 5 Surge's chained would result in a Zerg Rush on Steroids without a doubt.
That was an example. Most of the summoner spells have their uses. The currently accepted exceptions are:
1. Clarity: crutch for those who aren't good at managing mana
2. Heal: terrible scaling
3. Rally: gets killed ASAP, or just run away from
4. Fortify: crutch for poor lane management and/or getting killed

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all of the teams stats go up... not just AD and AP... Riot never stated that Surge ONLY buffs the team Offensively....
You're right, Riot never did say it only buffs the team's offense! Let's see what they did say!
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“Surge” is a brand new summoner spell that will imbue your champion with a powerful aura, boosting the combat effectiveness of both you and your allies.
What does "combat effectiveness" mean exactly? I don't know! But I'm basing my assumption (which I recognize as only an assumption) that it will be like Rally, which only increases AD (and AP when the mastery is taken). On the other hand, you seem to assume that it will make the other team OMGWTFBBQ invincible. Where you got that from, I have no clue.

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so you claim it will be easy to take down their main Carry on the first usage? However I think you missed some key elements here in this discussion. Lets not forget about Tanky DPS... apparently in your mind all damage dealers are as squishy as Veigar.
And team fights are the only thing that matter. You'll always be in a situation where Surge buffs all 5 members of a team, every other situation doesn't matter!

What happens if a ranged AD + support with Surge goes up a ranged AD + support with Exhaust? Who cares if the Exhaust wins, because that apparently doesn't matter!


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Demonicous

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Senior Member

11-04-2011

Okay Corallein...

You made good points but you cant deny that some champs will be almost never played because Flash is nerfd.... I agree its CD needs to be longer but its range shouldnt be considering the chasing that some champs are capable of.

Other champs need it for a strong initiation... bottom line... the meta will change to exclude certain champs without closing abilities... and the horrors of the past will come back. Remember Tryndamere over a year and a half ago running Cleanse and Ghost? I started out playing with Mundo... with a nefd Flash I can honestly say I may need to revive Mundo to wreak havock one people once again.

As far as promote I did want to remind you of what it was capable of waaaaay back in the day. I do think that with Promote you do need Fortify... and with Fortify you need Promote. They are like Yin and Yang in my book. I run Fortify on Blitzcrank a lot... improved Fortify at that. People tower dive me less in that situation. I also did manage to get kills / assists on Tryndamere that underestimated Fortify and Poppy much less but it can be done to save / avenge a teammate that was forced to turret hug. Now even turret hugging will get you called a feeder.

As far as Surge... you are assuming its going to be UP... I am assuming its going to be OP. My reason for this assumption is the fact that Riot would not replace a useless summoner spell (Rally) with another one. Thinking its not going to have the effect I fear is naive.

Take this scenario... your team a well balanced team... (A Tank, A Support, A ranged DPS, A burst mage, and a tanky / evasive melee DPS with survivability)

All of you have any combination SS

Enemy team consists of ( Irelia, Tryndamere, Xin Zhao, Yorick, Maokai ) all 5 have Surge...

now tell me how are you going to stop a 5 man Surge chained push?


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Nilator

Member

11-04-2011

I'm willing to bet that multiple copies of surge won't be effective for the same reason why multiple copies of heal aren't effect. A debuff that says "Cast this again and you get less effects".

Not that 1 copy of heal is even viable now.


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Demonicous

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Senior Member

11-05-2011

But Seriously what if Flash Cooldown was increased by 40% of what it currently is right now but Summoner Spells were affected by CDR... this means people build CDR in order lower Summoner Spell cooldowns... which means that the spell will not be abused early game because of its incredibly long early game Cooldown.

This could be applied to all Summoner Spells and solve the problem. Nerfing an initiatior / escape spell will not make more aggressive gameplay... the game will become too passive. People will be way too carefull about doing ANYTHING... walking into a bush is now going to literally be life or death.

I am trying to blatantly point out that this change will not have the effect Riot is looking for.


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rekkless

Senior Member

11-06-2011

the only bad thing about the flash change is that it didn't happen a year ago


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Jhaerik

Senior Member

11-06-2011

Well between the recently added tanky champs, the nerfing of flash, the removal of fortify, the inclusion of surge... is Riot just saying "Play a tanky AD, or go home"?

Sounds like squishy champs, will have no option but death via a double tanky tower dive with one packing surge. They can't flash out of range, they can't rely on the tower to make up for their comparably worse early games, and surge will make for faster kills, and possibly higher defense as well.

Now have one pack heal, and one pack surge, What is a carry/support lane going to do againt a dive like that? Pray? What about solo lanes? Will a solo lane be able to even hold a tower without their jungle resorting to lane vs a double lane? If not wouldn't that just defeat the purpose of jungling? Feeding top 0/4 and losing a tower wouldn't be worth it.

Sounds like they are trying to create a world of 2/1/2 lanes where people farm at tower for 40 minutes, then whoever wins the first team fight wins.

If top can't solo without being dived, jungles die out. If jungles have nothing to gank due to endless tower humping due to flash nerf, jungles die out.

Sounds like a change for the passive to me.


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PresBarackbar

Senior Member

11-06-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by rekkless View Post
the only bad thing about the flash change is that it didn't happen a year ago
People who don't play casters are all over this new flash nerf, but let me tell you, its gonna make a lot of champs really terrible. Anyone without a reliable stun, slow, or escape is going to have to play super passively if they want to live.


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