Bot Lane Counter-Pick List

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IS1429332aa9b633

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Cait is quite good against Yorick, she has a good range and can flee easily.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vydelar

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eface View Post
I've played Ez a lot bot(EU) and have been quite succesfull with him. Start out with sheen, lvl Q first, then go to Rabadon/Lichbane. Anyway, as mentioned AP ez, it's remarkable how well he can hold bot. Q everytime it's up. If it's not on the enemychamp get a last hit on a minion(to keep the line pushed and farm). Ez's strong point comes from the part where he can fire blindly in the bush, and escape over the walls. Kassadin/Soraka have got a long range silence, this hurts ez a lot, especially with his low health pool. After lvl 6 there's nothing AP Ez can do vs kassadin
I hate to say this to you, but Ez has no business being in bottom lane. The problem being that outside of his ultimate, he has no aoe ability to kill minions and will eventually be nailed to the turret against a champ that can. He can lock a turret down that's friendly from backdoor grabs fairly well due to skillshot harrassment, but his abilities to defend against a pushing champion just are not strong enough to warrent him being put against Heimer, nasus, cassiopeia, or any other top-end pushing champions.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stimuz

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by vydelar View Post
i hate to say this to you, but ez has no business being in bottom lane. The problem being that outside of his ultimate, he has no aoe ability to kill minions and will eventually be nailed to the turret against a champ that can. He can lock a turret down that's friendly from backdoor grabs fairly well due to skillshot harrassment, but his abilities to defend against a pushing champion just are not strong enough to warrent him being put against heimer, nasus, cassiopeia, or any other top-end pushing champions.
tiamat ez gogo


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stimuz

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindlessLegend View Post
I play Soraka and I am sad vs champs that can out range my silence and kite me like kog and others
It doesn't really matter if you can't push vs a champ as Soraka due to getting MR stacked or whatever else. The main thing is that you cannot be pushed as soraka either since you can clear any number of creeps in about 4.5 seconds without much AP.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Warrrrax

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-07-2011

I fail to see how Sivir counters Heim and Yorick.

What makes her so freaking great? I tried her and got owned. Not that this means anything, but I would expect a "counter" to be naturally pretty effective and not all that hard to pick up.

Her Boomerang Blade is great vs champs, but at -20% damage per thing it hits, it degrades fast! Do you instead try to riccochet and spam autoattacks against everything?

Yorick utterly decimates anything in his path, and I dont see how Sivir stops it. His W,E have solid range, and can even be used vs caster creeps to spawn zombies to chase and annoy enemy laners if you can't actually hit them directly.

Maybe when Sivir is fed a bit more, she will have the AD along with riccochet to push hard, but early on, I don't see how she competes. She can't even take out heimer turrets with her boomerang blade.

---------
There is no freaking WAY that Heimer counters Yorick. As yorick ive had a few tougher fights but that was just because he was better than me. And I STILL more or less won the lane. Most Heims get steamrolled by Yorick.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stez007

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Okay, massive justifications time!

Quote:
I would suggest switching out Sivir for urgot, because he CAN wreck him if he lands his noxian grenades. Sivir pops too easily and needs to get in range of his creeps to be effective, which means be in range of ryze :P.
I'm really not convinced in Urgot's strength. I haven't yet seen hi mdo well, personally.

As for Sivir v Ryze, Sivir can harass much more easily and from much longer range in Dominion than she can in SR. Since an average wave is only three minions, and they bunch up fairly close together, Sivir only needs 3 points in Ricochet to guarantee one blade per attack hits the enemy champion. With attack damage and speed, this adds up to a *lot* of damage that Sivir can put out for almost no mana (thanks to CS's mana buff) and at up to 1200 range. A well-played Sivir will rarely let Ryze get closer than that, as throwing a boomerang blade and running is enough to scare him off: the BB will clear the wave and force Ryze to deal, while Sivir stays far back in safety.

Quote:
I see Maokai on the list. Is he good bottom? I vsed one with Soraka a few days ago and boy did he have a bad day.

What do you all think about Fiddle countering Yorick bottom? His health keeps going down, yours keeps going up. Fast. One bad thing is, Fiddle is terrible at pushing minions especially when you aren't leveling Dark Wind.
Mao'Kai is strong because of his tankiness and long range harass. He can put out some great damage against mages, too. I wouldn't call him the strongest bot lane though, but tbh I havent seen enough of him in action.

Fiddle is too squishy to face Yorick, and he suffers from the "better off top" caveat as well. His ult is too valuable for teamfights at Windmill, IMO, for him to go bottom. Additionally, he can't push as well as Yorick can and will be overwhelmed in short order.

Quote:
For countering Soraka bottom, I think she's hardest countered by ranged AD, more so than someone like Zilean.

See, Soraka has the third lowest base armor in the game. 8 ARMOR. Meanwhile, her passive gives her really good MR. Fighting Graves bot is a 50/50 at best, if he plays bad. Haven't seen her yet but Caitlyn is probably a real pain too.You'll usually rush a frozen heart early against these guys but it's not always enough. If they're smart and get lifesteal your pokes start getting really lackluster.
My problem with sending an AD against Soraka is that they will be at a severe early game disadvantage. Most ADs can't put out the kind of damage Soraka can early on and have nowhere near the sustain, meaning they'll likely be overwhelmed quickly and cost their team a huge chunk of time and points. Zilean, for example, can stay well out of range of Soraka's harass while still farming and harassing himself.

Quote:
moakai absolutely destroys the people on that list of 'counters'

maokais hardest counters are ryze and morgana
Potentially. I actually forgot Ryze as a Mao'kai counter. I may switch him for Brand, or add him as a fourth option.

Morgana can't harass as well as Mao'kai. As a Morgana player, I feel like she'd be zoned hard and unable to score kills t omake up for it.

Quote:
This list is a very good guide. But lets not forget that skill>champion. I would like to see the same list with the rest of the common bans. Like Ryze against Jax or Lee Sin against Akali or Yorick against Poppy (from my experience).
As mentioned in the OP, the matchup at top is considerably harder to quantify thanks to its 4v4 nature and penchant for splitting into smaller skirmishes. Mobility, for example, is much more of a factor--but is it as big a factor as burst damage? As tankiness? Bot lane has fewer variables.

Quote:
I have a hard time with Singed bottom when I play Yorick, to be honest. He's the one I groan about when I see him down there. Again, I'm not sure if that is the norm, or just me. One possible reason is that I do not build Tear/Manamune, rushing Trinity and building tanky instead. So, I would run myself out of mana trying to put any damage on Singed since I did not want to chase him around. He was also able to neutralize my push pretty well.
I've seen the Singed/Yorick matchup twice and the key factor in both was Yorick's ability to ignore Singed's harass while using ghouls for his own harassing purposes. Once Yorick got Manamune Singed did not have a chance.

Quote:
You should put a notice on Nasus - Be mindful where you step, for being anywhere near your minions will let him take a large chunk of health off you with Spirit Fire. Ideally you want to be fighting in front of the minions, and buy some mr to counter Spirit Fire. If you can't keep him away from the minions, he will melt the wave without problems.

As a Nasus bot player, my builds are heavily E centric, building AP/CDR/Tank to maximize his power through fast spam, and just edge slicing the opponent with max cdr E (7.2 seconds) till they go away. Also Nasus is one of the strongest pushers in dominion when built with some AP. I've been in games where the bottom was swapped twice because they didn't have what it takes to keep me from melting minions.

Also, a notice for Dominion Bottom Lane players. Your choices of summoners are absurdly limited. If you don't take Promote, you have weakened your offense, and if you don't have promote or garrison, you might as well just sit in the fountain if the opponent has promote. Lately, I've been going just Promote/Garrison, which makes me weaker to ganks and potential backdoors, but if you can't win the lane, your other summoner spells are worthless in the job anyway.

Edit: Also to the OP, I would mark Kayle as someone that potentially should go top if anyone is better. Yes, Kayle has some of the qualities of being a good bottom champion, but not enough, and you lose the ability to Ult teammates guarding/attacking a point.
Most Nasus' I've seen, including myself, build similarly to his SR standard. It works quite well, as tank Nasus is nearly impossible to force off of a point 1v1, regardless of his Q's damage. I've heard good things about AP, though, and may try it out sometime soon.

As for Kayle, I find her lategame power to be much more useful bot lane, where she can have that slight gold advantage. On Kayle every item counts. She's a strong top lane support pick, too, but I find her early harass and lategame invincibility to be too valuable in a bot lane situation.

Quote:
Any thoughts on Talon bot? Just saw him in a game for the first time, he completely and utterly wrecked our Ryze, and I can imagine it might be the same vs a lot of other AP casters.
Talon is the equivalent of Tryndamere in SR. He's not extremely reliable, but if he gets going he's unstoppable. To stop him, you (any bot lane champion works) need to play hyper-aggressively and use Exhaust to score early kills. Fighting Talon is all about making sure you put him on the defensive. Out-ranging him of course helps.

Quote:
Interesting idea, I don't think the list is particularly accurate though overall. Like Ryze counters most champions on the list (but isn't listed on them), and Sivir gets countered, she isn't a counter to anyone of concern. Urgot also counters most of the champions on the list, but isn't even listed as a normal bot.

Also, malz isn't countered by a champion, he's countered by an item. If you have a QSS off cooldown, you win.

In response to the person above me, Rune Prison has a slightly longer range than Talon's gap closer. Basically Ryze should get free harassment if Talon tries to attack then back off unless Talon is low enough to kill.
Ryze gets tanky and strong, but isn't *that* tanky or *that* strong. He can be out-damaged and out-tanked by many champions, though not many of those can match his pushing ability at the same time. More importantly, he can't push *that* well. Outranging him and outpushing him is enough to keep his effectiveness down to a minimum, and these champions do just that.

Sivir is the ultimate counter to a pushing champion, as no one pushes harder than Sivir. She is also, as mentioned, very safe when she pushes as she can stand back and harass all day with Ricochet and Boomerang blade, without needing to worry about mana like she needs to on SR. She is countered by champions that can out-harass her and ignore her spell shield, which allows them to kill her fairly easily. Kayle, Cass and Malz can all do this while coming close to matching her pushing power.

I've played a *lot* of Sivir in bot lane, so I'm quite certain about these picks and her overall viability as a bot laner.

Malz isn't a one-trick pony, though. He can push hard and harass harder even without his ultimate. AD Malz is also pretty insnae if you see one, though I believe it's just a fad atm.

Quote:
i have seen a few anivia players do very well bottom lane. the competent ones seem to be able to just hold their bottom tower until they hit lvl 6. once the bird gets their ultimate, they will be pushing the opponents bottom and unless the other team sends someone to help they will lose it.

i haven't seen a good anivia against yorik so i can't comment on that particular matchup.
I'm skeptical about Anivia as she can't really 1v1 all that well. I could be wrong, though. I'll put her up with a * caveat (I think her AoE and wall are stronger top lane).

Quote:
As someone who has played something around 200 dominion games
Mostly bot

Im finding Galio is a noteworthy choice that counters a good portion of common picks with ease
Heimer... Ryze... Basically any of the ap champs on this list. Mao is a constant tug o war but you can force his hand late game with pokes and quickly pushing minion waves out.


As for counters, Yorick becomes a hassle quick, generally whoever the better player is will win the lane or bottom just becomes a stalemate without any ganks
Hard counters for galio consist of Sivir,Graves,Talon, Noc. Mostly any AD with a gap closer or decent range forcing him to lose a big part of his early game dominance and sustain by building armor. Exploit Galio bearly before he ranks his shield up and gets CDR. Also move around him so he can't easily nail gust
Will be putting Galio up there. I'll temporarily list his counters as Sivir, Graves and Talon*

Quote:
Maokai is much better supporting his team than camping bottom. Holding windmill top with the help of his ultimate is much more useful than throwing a sapling into a pack of creeps every 15 seconds.
Potentially, but I havent seen a really good Mao'kai go top just yet. I may add a * to him later.

Quote:
I dont think this distinction should be made. There are a few champs that are very good at both and when my team picks 4 carries im not going to say "Well singed is better top so i will pick a different bot champ" im going to play who im good with.

Besides many champs have a strong presence in early game bot that do well to switch later. Thats why i like to take singed bot. Farm like crazy and bully the **** out of the bot defender then get someone to switch me and go wreck top once i have some defense, ROA and run speed.
Well, some champions are just "good picks" overall. I want this list to focus on champions that specialize in going bot lane and dominating the opponent. It's boring to see the same 10 champions every game, and not everyone owns those same champions, so this list will hopefully help people who really want a strong counter (but may not have the perfect pick) get an idea of who works well against whom.

I'll be putting Singed* on the list, though.

Quote:
Been forced to go bot as Riven a couple times today, and it seems like she completely owns Nasus. Possibly my opponents weren't any good, but if he gets anywhere near Riven he gets wrecked.
Most Nasus, as mentioned, tend to build like they do on SR: early Glacial Shroud into Frozen Heart later. Riven needs to be close to Nasus to kill him, but an armored giant sandstorm dog ontop of purple ground punishes her way too hard. Logically she's just not a good pick, but I confess I havent been a part of that matchup yet.

Quote:
Mordekaiser is a solid counter to Heimerdinger ( can push as hard / harder ), his E decimates turrets, and Morde's ult can turn a gank around your way.

I've beaten Ryze bottom, Graves is manageable after 6 ( especially if you grab thornmail )

Yorick owns Morde tho ( in my experience )
Morde just isn't a strong pick overall IMO. His ult is more useful in a teamfight, but he isn't tanky enough anymore to make much of a difference in teamfights. Bottom lane his ult isn't as strong, and he still isn't as tanky. He's certainly viable, but I question his effectiveness as a counter-pick.

Quote:
I've played Ez a lot bot(EU) and have been quite succesfull with him. Start out with sheen, lvl Q first, then go to Rabadon/Lichbane. Anyway, as mentioned AP ez, it's remarkable how well he can hold bot. Q everytime it's up. If it's not on the enemychamp get a last hit on a minion(to keep the line pushed and farm). Ez's strong point comes from the part where he can fire blindly in the bush, and escape over the walls. Kassadin/Soraka have got a long range silence, this hurts ez a lot, especially with his low health pool. After lvl 6 there's nothing AP Ez can do vs kassadin
As mentioned by someone above, Ez is far better off going top lane. He can't push well enough to justify going bot with him.

Quote:
Cait is quite good against Yorick, she has a good range and can flee easily.
I don't find Cait to be especially strong, as lategame she's blown up easily. Compare to Sivir, who tends to build Atmog's and lifesteal over attack speed and crit. As well, Cait doesnt have the option for Banshee's Veil for survivability, while Sivir gets one built in.

Quote:
fail to see how Sivir counters Heim and Yorick.

What makes her so freaking great? I tried her and got owned. Not that this means anything, but I would expect a "counter" to be naturally pretty effective and not all that hard to pick up.

Her Boomerang Blade is great vs champs, but at -20% damage per thing it hits, it degrades fast! Do you instead try to riccochet and spam autoattacks against everything?

Yorick utterly decimates anything in his path, and I dont see how Sivir stops it. His W,E have solid range, and can even be used vs caster creeps to spawn zombies to chase and annoy enemy laners if you can't actually hit them directly.

Maybe when Sivir is fed a bit more, she will have the AD along with riccochet to push hard, but early on, I don't see how she competes. She can't even take out heimer turrets with her boomerang blade.

---------
There is no freaking WAY that Heimer counters Yorick. As yorick ive had a few tougher fights but that was just because he was better than me. And I STILL more or less won the lane. Most Heims get steamrolled by Yorick.
Sivir's strengths are as follows.

-Hands-down best pushing ability in the game
-Ability to harass at level 5 for hardly any mana at long range, while still farming/pushing
-Spell Shield to prevent early ganks and to disrupt opponents' harass/kill combo
-Ability to build Atmog's and still put out excellent damage in an AoE
-Long-range poke/harass through Boomerang Blade

It's entirely likely that you were out-played or out-built. Try getting 3 points in Ricochet first and using your Ricochet/autoattacks to harass and kill ghouls/turrets. After that max Boomerang Blade. Rush a Sanguine Blade (start Prospector's/boots) and then Atmog's, and see how well you do. (Wit's End for MR, boots depend on how well you're doing/who the enemy is. Zerkers, Tabi or Mercs).

As for Heimer v Yorick, I' m feeling that you're just a better Yorick player. I've seen Heimer v Yorick a number of times and Heimer came out on top nearly every time. He can stay far back from Yorick's harass while harassing himself, and blind/stun if necessary to escape or kill.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cilreve

Member

11-07-2011

If I know I'm going to be bottom I go heimer, and, so far, the champ that's given me the most trouble is Caitlyn. After roughly 10min she'd just mow right through me; I was utterly powerless to stop her.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BigDaddyRelish

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Xerath is an extremely good counter-bot to a lot of the people on that list as well.

His immense range, pushing power, and burst is hard to ignore. He is a very formidable bottom, and in my opinion one of the best.

Super underrated, he wipes the floor with people like Yorick, Nasus, Graves, Heimer, and other popular picks.


Cassiopeia and Karthus can give him some trouble though, but they don't counter him as hard as he counters some of the people I listed at least.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vydelar

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Soraka makes a good counter to singed, if nothing else, the ability to outlast him. Him being in fling range means he's been in starcall range and infuse range to buy even more time before he can fling ya.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Karma Harmony

Member

11-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydelar View Post
Soraka makes a good counter to singed, if nothing else, the ability to outlast him. Him being in fling range means he's been in starcall range and infuse range to buy even more time before he can fling ya.
True, but its real hard, takes tons of skill to counter Singed. And he is super-annoying to counter (have to constantly avoid the poison when chasing & always be aware how you are going to be flung & which direction you will need to run to to avoid too much poison).

I do tend to win against Singed as Soraka, but its really hard .... Much easier to win against most opponents...

The hardest part about Singed is to take his tower ... you can't get too close, or you get flung into the tower and soon die ... therefore the end result usually is a fight over the health pack under the tower (as I am killing the minions as the spawn, so my minions can take his tower)....

I would say I fail to take his tower 90% of the time (mostly since by the time I finally wear him down, his teammates come to help). Still distracting his teammates is still a minor win...