[Guide] Kog the Magic Voidling

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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

11-01-2011

We've already discussed most of this stuff, but Ill bring up a few points:

1) I don't quite understand the last item. Atmas adds fairly minimal armor, some crit that only works on your minimal physical damage, and some AD that you have already shown is not optimal.

I would think you would want this item to be something that truly hard-counters whatever you are having a problem with.

a) Void Staff - Not my favorite but if they are seriously stacking magic resist (lots of tanky DPSers), then this might be an option to increase your 15% pen to 49%. Thus increasing DPS significantly.
If you deal 100 damage per hit, and they have 100 MR (85 after your 15%), then they take 55 damage per hit. If you got Void, that reduces them to 51 MR, and they eat 66 damage per hit. That is about 20% DPS increase.



b) Thornmail - You already have decent (100ish) armor from bloodrazor (SR/TT), but this item really hozes the enemy AD carries. Cuts your damage taken by ~40% (assuming they have modest flat armor pen), plus ensures that in a straight up urination contest that you will kill them before they kill you thanks to thornmail. (in any case it counters the heck out of their lifesteal).

c) Banshees - You have a good 60-80 MR, but with Mpen/Sorc shoes that can be dropped to 30-50. Adding banshees once again gives you a good 40% reduction. PLUS this is particularly good vs long range CC that gets you killed, like an enemy Morgana/Lux's skillshot, etc.


2) Choice of Boots. I would add Sorc Shoes as a viable alternative to Zerker. Youve run the numbers and Zerker provides more autoattack damage, but Sorc shoes increases autoattack damage, PLUS significantly increases your Ult poke ability..especially vs those with little MR.


3) APen/MPen runes - Some use APen runes to ensure that they can deal maximum damage to enemy champions very early on by dropping their 15 armor to 0. Since runes really only make a big difference early on, this seems like a reasonable plan.

Personally I go MPen runes and wind up maxing Puke first, taking Chalice as a first item. Ive honestly tried using Barrage as my 1st skill but I wind up taking too much damage since if mid, Im against long range foes. Plus, using autoattacks invokes the wrath of creeps so sustained attacks ensures I eat creep damage back.
So Ive gotten used to using PUke Carpet as my initial boosted spell, at least till level 6.

Plus the mpen/sorc shoes work very nicely to boost all my magical damage throughout the game.


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TheNavs

Junior Member

11-01-2011

The item spreadsheet is really impressive. Thanks for this guide!


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Eledhan

Senior Member

11-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
We've already discussed most of this stuff, but Ill bring up a few points:
Before I respond to your well-written critques, let me just thank you for being such an awesome forum member. Your contributions to almost every thread you respond to are on-topic, logical, and you are rarely insulting (unless they deserve it).

Is your summoner name the same as your forum name?

Now on to the fun stuff!

Quote:
1) I don't quite understand the last item. Atmas adds fairly minimal armor, some crit that only works on your minimal physical damage, and some AD that you have already shown is not optimal.

I would think you would want this item to be something that truly hard-counters whatever you are having a problem with.
Well, first off...Banshee's will win over any other 6th item 9 times out of 10 in a truly competitive game that has lasted long enough for you to get to a 6th item. Games that last that long will be decided on a couple of critical ability casts, and BV can block the one that is intended for Kog, and essentially give his team the win.

In the event that the enemy team has little to no hard CC, or it's the kind that requires someone to get right on top of you (Singed is a good example) then I suggest Atma's.

I mainly recommend Atma's because it provides a nice boost to AD which makes it even harder to itemize against your DPS. It also provides nice armor which, frankly, is not intended for opposing auto-attackers...you should out-DPS them no matter what build they are running. The armor component is more for AD casters / Assassins such as Lee Sin, Gangplank, and Talon. The extra 18% crit chance is just gravy imo.

I'm not discounting your points, and I'm going to add in your thoughts to the guide. I'll reference you at some point near the top, so you can have credit for keeping me honest.

Quote:
a) Void Staff - Not my favorite but if they are seriously stacking magic resist (lots of tanky DPSers), then this might be an option to increase your 15% pen to 49%. Thus increasing DPS significantly.
If you deal 100 damage per hit, and they have 100 MR (85 after your 15%), then they take 55 damage per hit. If you got Void, that reduces them to 51 MR, and they eat 66 damage per hit. That is about 20% DPS increase.
This is actually a very appealing purchase instead of selling Wit's for Malady late game...it also puts you over 50 AP, which will give Kog an additional 1% of total HP damage per attack...and it helps all of his abilities as well.

Good point my good man!

Quote:
b) Thornmail - You already have decent (100ish) armor from bloodrazor (SR/TT), but this item really hozes the enemy AD carries. Cuts your damage taken by ~40% (assuming they have modest flat armor pen), plus ensures that in a straight up urination contest that you will kill them before they kill you thanks to thornmail. (in any case it counters the heck out of their lifesteal).
The issue I have with Thornmail is that it's passive is only useful maybe 10% of the time you are in combat.

Here's what I mean...

50% the time you are in combat you are not getting hit by the opposing team due to your range. Of the times you ARE getting hit by the opposing team, their ranged AD will probably only be able to reach you 20% of that time. 20% of 50% is 10% of all combat situations where your Thornmail will be worth it. The rest of the time, you paid an extra 1,000 for 35 more armor, which will only be useful if they have a physical caster or assassin.

I figure people may not see the in-combat calculations the same way I do, so...

75% of the time you are in combat, you get hit, and 50% of the times you are hit, you get hit by their ranged AD means that the Thornmail passive is useful 38% of the time in combat situations. That's a much more conservative assumption.

So...Thornmail's passive is useful between 10% and 40% of the time you are in combat, whereas Atma's (the best armor alternative) is useful 100% of the time, since you will be auto-attacking the whole time, and it boosts your auto attack while still providing some protection from physical damage.

Quote:
c) Banshees - You have a good 60-80 MR, but with Mpen/Sorc shoes that can be dropped to 30-50. Adding banshees once again gives you a good 40% reduction. PLUS this is particularly good vs long range CC that gets you killed, like an enemy Morgana/Lux's skillshot, etc.
I don't know if maybe you missed where I explained that BV is the most likely final item or not...maybe I need to go make that more clear. Anyway, I completely agree with you that BV is a great choice for item 6. It really rounds out Kog's survival against enemy magical damage.

Quote:
2) Choice of Boots. I would add Sorc Shoes as a viable alternative to Zerker. Youve run the numbers and Zerker provides more autoattack damage, but Sorc shoes increases autoattack damage, PLUS significantly increases your Ult poke ability..especially vs those with little MR.
I need to put a section in there further explaining the choice between these two. I don't like Sorc's if I'm going to get any other forms of Mpen such as Malady or Void. That kind of wastes an item slot.

Plus, if you decide to go with Atma's end game (which I think is still the best solution to enemy physical damage), you will get even more scaling out of the Greaves.

Anyway, you can see in my spreadsheet on the "Zerk's vs. Sorc's" tab showing that Zerk's will out-DPS Sorc's by about 4% at max DPS and level against an average target.

I will update the guide reflecting this concept and also the fact that Sorc's scales up your ability damage nicely.

Quote:
3) APen/MPen runes - Some use APen runes to ensure that they can deal maximum damage to enemy champions very early on by dropping their 15 armor to 0. Since runes really only make a big difference early on, this seems like a reasonable plan.

Personally I go MPen runes and wind up maxing Puke first, taking Chalice as a first item. Ive honestly tried using Barrage as my 1st skill but I wind up taking too much damage since if mid, Im against long range foes. Plus, using autoattacks invokes the wrath of creeps so sustained attacks ensures I eat creep damage back.
So Ive gotten used to using PUke Carpet as my initial boosted spell, at least till level 6.

Plus the mpen/sorc shoes work very nicely to boost all my magical damage throughout the game.
I agree. That's why I included them in the viable runes section, but I don't prefer them.

The biggest reason I don't like them is that in a fight, you might need to get that last split second of an attack in, but you just CAN'T. The AS runes help with that.

I ran a bunch of tests using my spreadsheet and the builds and just swapping the runes out to see which rune combination will give the most DPS for each point in the game against the target values listed in the sheet. Unfortunately, AS beat everything except for Apen and AD early on. But once you have SotD and Wit's, AS wins against every other rune option in terms of auto attack DPS.

Mpen is great if you don't want to just focus on auto attacking, but that's just the way I play him. I'm kind of with you on this...they don't make a big enough difference to matter, so use what you have and if you want to try a different flavor, then save up the IP and give it a whirl.

But that AS sure does make last-hitting easy mode!

Thanks for the input! I'm gonna go update the item sections in the guide, and I'll make another post when it's been updated. Once it is, I'd love to hear your thoughts!

EDIT:

Wowow! Holy long post, Batman!


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Eledhan

Senior Member

11-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNavs View Post
The item spreadsheet is really impressive. Thanks for this guide!
Thanks!

If you have any questions, or requests for comparing other options, just let me know and I'll post my findings.


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Warrrrax

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-01-2011

Thx for props. Yes my summoner name is the same...4 Rs. /sigh. Maybe you can dual queue with me and raise my ELO... I'm good at analysis but suck at playing apparently. Too old I guess and don't play enough.
-----

Yeah I think I missed the part about Banshees being the ideal 6th item. My bad.

Void - I TOTALLY thought about that 1% extra barrage benefit too. ;-)

Thornmail - I kinda agree with thornmail and I do rarely get it. However, there are times when they have some fed Noc or Xin who has a pretty significant gap-closer who WILL manage to get to you more often than not. Especially Noc with his Ult...
So for the average situation I'd still go with Banshee, but in rare occasions I believe that thornmail is appropriate.


Atmas- I understand your logic about diversifying your damage, but ideally you have a balanced team anyways. It is certainly easy enough to thornmail and counter physical attackers, but magical attacks are very difficult to deal with.
Once they get Banshees...then what? Even if they are all pooping their pants about your Kog and screaming OMG OMG... what are they gonna do about it?
Force of Nature sucks...most of the gold cost goes towards health regen.
Hexdrinker is a small item...not what most want to take mid to endgame.
Ditto with Chalice and Quicksilver belt.
And with void, you penetrate half their MR anyways.

So honestly I dont care if they try to counter my magical damage because they simply are unable to efficiently do so.


BTW, I do start with Zerker on dominion due to the early game boost and then take a antimagic with it to upgrade to Wits End eventually. They are really efficient and work better than just taking dagger,boots,antimagic or 1 recurve bow.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

11-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
Thx for props. Yes my summoner name is the same...4 Rs. /sigh. Maybe you can dual queue with me and raise my ELO... I'm good at analysis but suck at playing apparently. Too old I guess and don't play enough.
I'm right there with ya...analysis FTW, but in-game mechanics either lack, or my teammates always suck...I'm thinking it's the former...
-----

Quote:
Yeah I think I missed the part about Banshees being the ideal 6th item. My bad.
No worries! Happens to the best of us!

Quote:
Void - I TOTALLY thought about that 1% extra barrage benefit too. ;-)
I figured you did...I just didn't realize it when writing the guide. I wonder if it actually grants the full 1% or just 0.7% and the ability tooltip just rounds the listed value up to the nearest whole number...I imagine that's what happens since all the other stats work that way. I mean, there's no such thing as 0.95 AD showing in your character sheet, but it probably uses 0.95 to calculate instead of 1.0.

Quote:
Thornmail - I kinda agree with thornmail and I do rarely get it. However, there are times when they have some fed Noc or Xin who has a pretty significant gap-closer who WILL manage to get to you more often than not. Especially Noc with his Ult...
So for the average situation I'd still go with Banshee, but in rare occasions I believe that thornmail is appropriate.
Yeah, I think we are on the same page here. If I were facing Noct or Xin, Thornmail all of a sudden becomes a great choice since they are the "focus the carry with auto attacks" kind of champs.

Quote:
Atmas- I understand your logic about diversifying your damage, but ideally you have a balanced team anyways. It is certainly easy enough to thornmail and counter physical attackers, but magical attacks are very difficult to deal with.
Actually, the reason for Atma's is to have higher mitigation against physical damage of all kinds, if needed. In which case, Atma's is the best Armor option on Kog. That 53 or so AD with 2.5 AS is simply too good to pass up. I mean...it's either that or some other armor item besides Thornmail...I can't think of a better use of the item slot than Atma's.

Quote:
Once they get Banshees...then what? Even if they are all pooping their pants about your Kog and screaming OMG OMG... what are they gonna do about it?

Force of Nature sucks...most of the gold cost goes towards health regen.
Hexdrinker is a small item...not what most want to take mid to endgame.
Ditto with Chalice and Quicksilver belt.
And with void, you penetrate half their MR anyways.

So honestly I dont care if they try to counter my magical damage because they simply are unable to efficiently do so.
If I don't think I need the Armor, then sure, I say go Void. That makes your damage go through the roof, and every point your opponents get in MR makes it more and more efficient.


Quote:
BTW, I do start with Zerker on dominion due to the early game boost and then take a antimagic with it to upgrade to Wits End eventually. They are really efficient and work better than just taking dagger,boots,antimagic or 1 recurve bow.
Yeah, makes sense...the Move 2 is great, and you don't get enough benefit from the Mpen on DOM early because you can't get your proc items yet. Plus, Kitae's isn't quite as powerful as MBR, which means you won't necessarily gain as much a benefit from Sorc's.

This reminds me...I need to do a dominion build on him...I just can't justify playing a ranged champ on Dominion in its current state...maybe after they release the rest of their updates that they mentioned in the patch preview.


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Lorifel

Senior Member

11-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
-How To Use This Guide
I accidently read "How to eat this guide" =\

(In b4 reading in full)


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LancerXXX

Senior Member

11-01-2011

Have you considered getting Zhonya's Hourglass instead of Atma's Impaler? It gives more armor, and 100 AP, with this build, is probably worth more than 35 AD. However, if you opponents are stacking MR, I can see why you would want an Atma's Impaler. The active also allows you to dodge all that burst/Akali/Talon/Shaco etc. damage in a teamfight - which WILL save you a lot.
Or perhaps I'm just addicted to it... I get Zhonya's Hourglass on every squishy with a half-decent scaling.
Puff the Magic Dragon FTW!

And against right-clickers, the Thornmail might perhaps double your (1 second) lifespan. But Zhonya's Hourglass IGNORES all that damage while the rest of your team (i.e. the AP carry) kills them. On a squishy like Kog'Maw, getting normal defensive items won't be that powerful, as they won't do much compared to on someone with high base HP etc.


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Lorifel

Senior Member

11-01-2011

Great guide, thank you, Eledhan. I am a fan of Kog, too. However, I like to play him as caster / ranged carry hybrid. That's why I would like to make a request.

Would it be possible to find out which of your suggested builds have bigger impact on Kog's "R" damage against various targets? I think this is where Sorc boots should really shine, but having exact numbers in % is so much better.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

11-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by LancerXXX View Post
Have you considered getting Zhonya's Hourglass instead of Atma's Impaler? It gives more armor, and 100 AP, with this build, is probably worth more than 35 AD. However, if you opponents are stacking MR, I can see why you would want an Atma's Impaler. The active also allows you to dodge all that burst/Akali/Talon/Shaco etc. damage in a teamfight - which WILL save you a lot.
Or perhaps I'm just addicted to it... I get Zhonya's Hourglass on every squishy with a half-decent scaling.
Puff the Magic Dragon FTW!

And against right-clickers, the Thornmail might perhaps double your (1 second) lifespan. But Zhonya's Hourglass IGNORES all that damage while the rest of your team (i.e. the AP carry) kills them. On a squishy like Kog'Maw, getting normal defensive items won't be that powerful, as they won't do much compared to on someone with high base HP etc.
A couple things...

1) Atma's gives 53 AD at the point I purchase it, not 35...which is a big difference.

2) Zhonya's will give you between 22 and 37 more magical proc from W and a bit more damage for your other abilities. The biggest thing for this item, though is it's active, which can completely screw over an enemy noct or xin...great idea!

3) I get high base HP because of Mallet, making any mitigation items that much better

4) Thornmail is only useful for melee auto attackers such as xin and noct...but as you have already pointed out, skip it for something that will increase your DPS as well...like Atma's or Zhonya's

I'm interested to see what Warrrrax has to say about this... essentially, you would choose between Banshee's, Zhonya's, and Void...with BV for purely defense, Zhonya's for a mixture of offense and defense, and Void for purely offense...