Let's really compare armor penetrate to critical chance

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wildfire393

Senior Member

06-21-2010

LW used to be an amazing item. Lategame, champs get up to 70-80 armor just from leveling, and when it applied before flat Penetration, that means that it'd give you 28-32 penetration. Since the recent change, where it applies after flat penetration, it's only generally applying to 30 or less, giving it only 12 penetration. In addition, they dropped the bonus damage off of it, so the only benefit it gets from combination is the penetration (previously it got a Longsword's worth of bonus damage for only 85 more than a longsword costs). Because of this, it's often better to build Stark's Fervor, Sword of the Divine, or even Bloodrazor.


So really comparing Crit Chance to Armor Pen:
Crit Chance Marks give 8.4% Crit Chance (which translates to an 8.4% increase in damage without IE, or a 12.5% increase with one)
Armor Pen Marks give 17.6 Armor Penetration. If the target has 20 Armor after your other penetration, this gives you ~14% increased damage. If they have 50 after your other pen, this gives you ~9% increased damage. So as long as you are running enough other Armor Penetration to reduce them to 50 or less, your Marks are better as Armor Pen.
Additionally, Armor Pen applies to all physical damage skills, while Crit Chance only applies to a select few (parrley, Judgment)


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viscrom

Senior Member

06-21-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by R66Y View Post
You compare them with crit runes repeatedly in your example while including LW. If you are trying to point out that flat crit and LW are not as synergetic as people may think due to the order they are calculated in, I agree with you, but that has little to do with crit vs AP runes UNLESS YOU ARE GETTING LW REGULARLY. So either you implied something to which i replied to, or you are obfuscating the issue (wittingly or not) by including irrelevant or secondary information. Either way, I stand by my original rebuttal even if you did not explicitly state that all AD champs get LW.

You provide a lot of numbers, but no real comparison. But you got me curious, so I guess I'll do some number crunching over lunch.
Actually only 1 example of numbers has last whipser, and I included it to show a direct comparison between last whisper and no last whisper. Try re-reading? Not sure what else to say.

I'm not hiding anything tbh. Nothing I included in the OP is irrelevant. I only included brutalizer in all examples because this is a 100% super standard item for typical AD carries.


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KrupsMcGee

Senior Member

06-21-2010

I think a combination of the two would be best. If we are only trying to decide which runes to use then almost always ArmPen with the exception of Tryn and Gangplank. Hasn't this been covered a million times already? Oh, and crit damage runes are worse than ArmPen runes, even with 100% crit chance. Old news.


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irahi

Junior Member

06-21-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfire393 View Post
Crit Chance Marks give 8.4% Crit Chance (which translates to an 8.4% increase in damage without IE, or a 12.5% increase with one)
Armor Pen Marks give 17.6 Armor Penetration. If the target has 20 Armor after your other penetration, this gives you ~14% increased damage. If they have 50 after your other pen, this gives you ~9% increased damage.
Your logic here is a tiny bit off.

Armor penetration effects increase your total damage by X%.

Crit chance increases only your base damage by X%.

This changes the scaling in an interesting way by making the two synergistic with eachother. Someone with more time on their hands than I do could probably find the crossover point where crit chance and armor penetration become equal in value, but I'm way too lazy to math that out right now. The point being that in a hypothetical situation where you have 50% crit chance already, adding 5% additional crit rate will not increase your total damage by 5%. Consider the base damage of 20 strikes at 100 damage each (10 at 100, 10 at 200 for 50% crit rate is 3000) Then increase the rate to 55% (9 at 100, 11 at 200 for 3100.) That 5% crit just increased your total damage by about 3.33%.

By comparison, 5% additional damage from armor penetration increases both normal and critical damage, so 5% increase is 5% total damage.


That sort of rambled more than I expected, I hope it makes sense to you in your theorycrafting endeavors.


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Eat dat chammich

Senior Member

06-21-2010

I've always been interested by this arguement. It's kind of at odds with the attack speed/damage arguement.

Attack Damge is considered better because you don't expect to be able to attack a champion all that many times before he runs or you are cc'd.

ArP is considered better because it gives a greater overall damage increase, however, it gives drastically lower burst damage than crit.

To me they all have their place and balance is ALWAYS the answer. Ashe, Panth and EZ have physical damage skills that cannot crit so they get great benefits from ArP. Champs like Scion, Gragas and Malph have huge attack damage at low levels which can make early crits DEVASTATE enemy champs.

If you really want to maximize your runes you will have to take more than perfect world math into account and you will have to tailor a page to a specific champ.


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Riotous Eldery

Junior Member

06-21-2010

armor pen order

debuffs (cleaver, starks, skills) > flat (runes, brutalizer, masteries, youmu) > percentile (lw)

The same applies to magic pen.

Essentially, pen still yields a pretty huge, free bost on damage VS the other runes
(crit chance and AS are way cheaper than damage), moreso if you crit.


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viscrom

Senior Member

06-21-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by irahi View Post
Your logic here is a tiny bit off.

Armor penetration effects increase your total damage by X%.

Crit chance increases only your base damage by X%.

This changes the scaling in an interesting way by making the two synergistic with eachother. Someone with more time on their hands than I do could probably find the crossover point where crit chance and armor penetration become equal in value, but I'm way too lazy to math that out right now. The point being that in a hypothetical situation where you have 50% crit chance already, adding 5% additional crit rate will not increase your total damage by 5%. Consider the base damage of 20 strikes at 100 damage each (10 at 100, 10 at 200 for 50% crit rate is 3000) Then increase the rate to 55% (9 at 100, 11 at 200 for 3100.) That 5% crit just increased your total damage by about 3.33%.

By comparison, 5% additional damage from armor penetration increases both normal and critical damage, so 5% increase is 5% total damage.


That sort of rambled more than I expected, I hope it makes sense to you in your theorycrafting endeavors.
It makes sense but the crossover point is more involved than just armor penetration vs critical chance. You have to include your actual damage too because in a real game having an extra 5% damage on top of a 50 damage attack is not much at all, but dealing double damage is a lot. You also need to factor in your enemy's HP. Long story short we're all too lazy to do this because it's a stupid amount of work. The stuff in my OP was 15 minutes worth of "work".

Here's a real game situation, no theory. This is straight up the damage you'll deal to a typical 75 base armor target with around 200 AD and IF.

Pick A or B [first number = no last whisper , second number = last whisper]:
A: I want to hit for 152/168 damage and crit for 380/420 damage 37% of the time.
B: I want to hit for 124/148 damage and crit for 310/370 damage 52% of the time.

Also figure most of the people in this category will have 2000-3000 HP (nukers tend to reach ~3k because a lot of AP gear has HP too).

A is with 29 armor penetrate, and B is with 14% critical chance.


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Crolda

Senior Member

06-21-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadephobiac View Post
you forget that armour pen works for abilities, whilst crit chance does not
No.


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Saysay

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Senior Member

06-21-2010

Crit chance is even better now than it was before, given the patch taking away the per level/crit chance. I used to toggle between both ARpen and chance before the patch but now it's a no brainer for me. It helps me get the early kills with bursty damage. Most players still run Arpen so I feel semi-comfortable in knowing that I won't be the one taking an unusual two crits in a row, while they might. Even if you don't get the kill, a crit or two in a row can usually send them home packing to regen giving you more lane time and them less.


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Holypope

Senior Member

06-21-2010

This has all been addressed before, but the OPS has oversimplied, which makes things a bit incorrect. Here's some better details:

Armor Pen: 29 armor pen with runes, 6 with masteries. 35 total. This can be pushed up to 50 with a brutalizer. that's about as high as it can go. period.

Crit chance: 32.7 crit chance from runes, 3 from masteries. 35.7 total. This can be maxed out to 100 easily, with any number of builds.

At face value, these two values appear about the same, but that's an illusion for a number of reasons:

1.) armor pen+crit chance stack. That means that if you've got 30% crit chance matched up with 30 armor pen, you're going to do more damage than if you had 60% crit chance. Here's an example:

100 damage+60% crit chance makes 160 damage on average. If the opponent has 75 armor, you only deliver 91 of that.

100 damage+30% crit chance and 50 armor pen makes only 130 base damage, but vs an opponent with 75 armor, you're hitting for 104, a significant improvement over the all-crit option. lets explore further though...

lets assume you go all crit runs and get a brutalizer just to help out. You've maxed out at 100% crits and 18 armor pen (brut+masteries)

100 damage base turns into 200 damage with crits, your opponent has 75 armor that you've reduced to 57. You now hit for 127.

...but now let's say you spec'd for armor pen. You're 33% less likely to crit due to your different rune choices, but you have 50 armor pen and 67% crit chance.

You hit for 100, averaged out to 167 with crits. your opponent with 75 armor is reduced to 25. You hit for
133, a slight advantage.

There is one more thing to consider though: the armor pen build can still get full crit chance. Let's do that:

100 damage crits to 200, with 50 armor pen against 75 armor: end result hits for 160... a large advantage.

it costs about 1,700g to gain the extra 30% crits. to increase damage by 30% through AD items for a late-game carry, you'd be spending 4k+ for equivalent damage.

Conclusion:

Although there are some points where crit chance will offer modest (1-5%) benefit over armor penetration, the gains in those scenarios are small compared to the double-digit percentage increases that one can achieve through armor penetration. Unquestionably, by endgame, armor pen runes will be significantly better than crit chance runes due the abundance of crit chance items and shortage of armor pen items.