Dominion Major changes in the works: info inside!

First Riot Post
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MomentArm

Junior Member

10-28-2011

I've really enjoyed Dominion. Here are my 2 cents:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
* Players don't get enough "moments of glory", and don't easily see how their success can effect the game.
It makes me nervous to hear you say this. I understand which actions lead to the success or failure of my team. The only moment of glory I need is the win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We will be focusing systems that allow more (gold, specifically) power differential between players.
I really hope the system that eventually gets implemented does not involve farming minions.

Several months ago I quit playing LoL. The reason: I don't want to jungle 100% of the time, I do not like playing support, and I could see that my lack of CS was holding me back. I do not like the mechanic of last hitting. I have no interest in improving my skill at it. (I'm sad Demigod did not succeed, I much preferred how it provided tension between harassing/pushing and gaining money: flag control. Controlling flags in Demigod only required good decision making. Last hitting in LoL also requires mastering a tedious, timing-based mini-game which varies with ping time and with each champion.)

Dominion removed the emphasis on last-hitting. If I start to feel that my lack of last-hitting skill is holding me back again, I'll probably stop playing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
* Comeback mechanics remove interesting team-level decision-making.

Our internal testing created some situations we felt this was mandatory. In practice, we think either an extremely toned-down version of this system or a removal of these systems needs to take place.
I don't mind the idea behind the comeback mechanics, but I do agree they need some heavy tweaking. Glad to hear about big changes here.


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Duskofdead

Senior Member

10-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genyosha View Post
I appreciate the fact that some changes need to be made, but some people fear that this is just going to become another version of SR. And frankly, what you said sounds exactly like that to me. My experience with Dominion has been people complaining about the fact that it's not SR more than anything. People expect to gank for 10 minutes and then afk mentally. Again, one of the things I appreciate about dominion is that you can be useful without being a power house by doing something different. I think it's also caused by a lack if established meta for the league version at least. I like the fact that Dominion is something totally different than SR. I could go on and on about that. That's, i think, the big fear a lot of people have when you say something like this. That you're going to take something unique and turn it into SR light.

My other big fear is when you talk about op champions. Heimer is a great example. He can't really afford any nerfs to be useable in SR. Frankly, he needs a buff. He is however an absurdly good pick in dominion and I suspect one of your targets to adjust. Which is a shame because it's incredibly likely to relegate him to dominion only.
I agree with you, I also got the sinking suspicion from the OP that this can be summed up as SR'izing Dominion by creating harder to break early leads and rewarding snowballing. I'm trying not to be a dramatist but I didn't feel from reading the topic post that these changes would be aimed at champions but would instead be tweaking the universal settings to try to reward snowball and champ choice and early game dominance more.

I don't think the problem is the gold gains, the xp gains, or the fact that behind teams can come back. I think the problem is with specific champions, and classes of champions, and I think all of those problems exist in SR and are simply hidden by the avialable workarounds. The fact that you can stop an Irelia or Singed or Akali from getting to the utterly ridiculous state in SR isn't because they're balanced, it's because you probably devoted most of your team and jungler efforts at shutting those champions down because you knew what would happen if you didn't. Dominion takes the ability to shut people down away, and you see the result. Some champs are much much stronger or difficult to deal with than others.

I don't particularly feel that all changes to champs in Dominion should also hit them in SR per se, especially with borderline ones who just have special utility in Dominion like Heimer as you pointed out. I do however think that simply tweaking down ambient gold gain and increasing kill gold gain or whatever other idea that Morello's post implied was the direction they'd take is going to further alienate champs who start weak and have to itemize heavily to have any effect (i.e. Ashe) and further reward champs who start strong and only get stronger (i.e. Akali). That will make the problem worse and the list of viable champs less diverse, not more diverse.


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TehomCD

Senior Member

10-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikruti View Post
2. Champions - From my experience late game champions aren't the sole problem. Heimerdinger is nowhere a late game champion yet is almost a permanent fixture. Singed? He's in 90% of the games I play. You're telling me it's because he's snowbally and late game? Somehow I'm thinking Shaco isn't in 90% of my games because of his late game.

I've made my peace with most of those champs and do know how to counter them. However my friends and I are starting to dislike Dominion solely based on the fact that 7 to 8 of the 10 champions in any given Dominion map are selected from a pool of roughly 12 or so. It's not about how tough it is to counter them anymore, it's about the monotony of the games when you face the same champs every time. It's even gotten to the point where people are getting flamed and hated on for picking champions outside that pool. And again, most of them aren't even late game champions.
I strongly agree with this. I've had trouble getting my casual friends to adopt Dominion simply because they find facing Rammus, Heimerdinger, and Shaco to be as infuriating as the inevitability of late-game carries/hypercarries. I don't really think of them as overpowered, but I think the perception that you need to play these champs may be hurting Dominion's appeal.

Personally, my solution would be to upgrade dominion-specific summoner spells. You could do something like make Garrison provide CC reduction to all nearby allies when used offensively on a point to prevent Heimerdinger or Shaco from 1v3ing a bad matchup by kiting all day. Making promoted minions detect stealth is also something to consider for making tactical stealth somewhat less of a nuisance.


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Arance

Senior Member

10-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

Again, I'll note the "these other people, who clearly are dumb, and not me" talk that is commonly associated with concerns is not a great debate presentation.
B-but obviously I'm the smartest player you will ever have, why won't you acknowledge my superiority and listen to my awesome ideas? I want my armored bear! ;_;


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Duskofdead

Senior Member

10-28-2011

On that side topic, Garrison is absolutely worthless defensively, and should prevent attempts to cap the node while it's in effect. All someone has to do is start capping to effectively cancel out Garrison. That would be as bad as if autoattacking a turret in SR would cancel fortify. Makes utterly no sense.


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NavyGothic

Senior Member

10-28-2011

Count me in as another who is concerned about the direction of these changes.

If Summoner's Rift players aren't embracing Dominion as much as you'd hoped... well, is that really such a bad thing? If they're playing SR, they're still playing LoL. An alternate game mode isn't going to decrease their enjoyment of SR.

On the other hand, changing Dominion to a more SR-style game could very well alienate those of us who do greatly enjoy the current playstyle of Dominion. I know that I never play SR or TT anymore; Dominion is just more fun for me. I like winning, but I like losing too; as long as the match is fun. Blowouts are the opposite of fun regardless of whether I'm winning or losing (not to mention the potential to make the early game incredibly stale, as with SR, because people are too afraid of giving the enemy a gold lead)

I don't have a problem with removing or reducing the spawn timer advantage for the losing team; that was always a slightly odd mechanic that actively gives an advantage to the losing team.

If there are any adjustments to be made, it should be to specific champions (ideally through itemisation, if you're concerned about the impact on SR). I don't quite understand why you think the hyper-carry is the problem, when the champions that people like to complain about (Rammus, Shaco, Heimer, etc.) are powerful from the start.


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Aleser

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Junior Member

10-28-2011

I am very concerned, as a long time SR player before Dom came out, that the concept of "feeding" will be added to Dominion.

If the gold rewards for killing a player increases much more, supercarries/already killy champions will get way out of hands; the likes of Poppy, Jax, Akali, Vayne and such that are already incredibly powerful on this map will simply cross over into untouchable territory if they get fed enough.

The constant stress of death in SR is not a good thing as far as I am concerned. Often in Dominion it's a good decision to delay 3 champion that are attempting to capture your node even if you have no chance of survival. You can also distract groups of players from the rest of your team even if it means your death.

If I am constantly concerned about feeding the opposite team like I am in SR, then the focus on running away will come back and invincible mid-late game champions will become even more so.

TL;DR : Rewarding kills with too much gold will make some champions invincible and slow down the action-packed gameplay of Dominion through the fear of dying and "feeding".


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nguyenmb

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Member

10-28-2011

A couple thoughts on solutions:

Reduce money gain while dead.
- Late game champions tend to die more in early game
- Most key aspects of winning rely on not recklessly suiciding (except the last 10 seconds), rewarding and encouraging people to stay alive

Increased income gain while having board control, or per point captured over time
- while snowbally, does encourage doing well early game

Personal score objectives yield gold bonuses
- although personal score is no where close to perfect, if it's meant to encourage different activites other than kills+captures, why not reward the player as well?


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Blindcow

Junior Member

10-28-2011

I like being able to come back and needing to hold three points to win.

If this game turns into WoW's Arathi Basin where you hit a point where you need 4-5 points at a certain score to win then it will become less compelling because people just give up at a certain point. I like that you are always in it with Dominion. It makes for exciting and compelling games.


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Thurskroa

Junior Member

10-28-2011

I am also concerned about Dominion turning into a SR light, i personally think it is fine where it is.