Experiment: Design a Magic Penetration Item

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Pacolicious

Junior Member

10-14-2009

I think a straight Magic Penetration Percent which is what everyone is suggesting is incredibly boring. I believe we should give the item a high penetration amount, but to balance it put one of two restrictions on it. A time limit, such as happening once every 20 seconds. Or a clone of Ashe's innate critical strike ability, 10% chance to penetrate magic resistance, builds up over time or on spell cast and resets to 10% after successful proc.
Maybe i will think up an item.


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JayceJa

Member

10-15-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacolicious View Post
I think a straight Magic Penetration Percent which is what everyone is suggesting is incredibly boring. I believe we should give the item a high penetration amount, but to balance it put one of two restrictions on it. A time limit, such as happening once every 20 seconds. Or a clone of Ashe's innate critical strike ability, 10% chance to penetrate magic resistance, builds up over time or on spell cast and resets to 10% after successful proc.
Maybe i will think up an item.
a % chance to work on cast like your second idea you mentioned is a very very bad idea for spells, however a cooldown based 100% magic penetration could work well, i earlier suggested something like that crossed with sheen, where casting one spell would make your next spell bypass magic resistance, made for chain casters


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Paivan

Member

10-15-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandim View Post
Misery 1655 - Recipe (800) + Dagger (420) + Amplifying Tome (435)

+25 AP

UNIQUE - Casting a spell increase your attack speed by 300% and reduce your damage done by physical attacks by 80%. Your attacks reduce the target magic resistance by 15(Stacks 3 times)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Insanity 3630 - Recipe (1000) + Misery (1655) + Sage's Ring (975)

+25 AP
+500 mana

UNIQUE - Casting a spell increase your attack speed by 400% and reduce your damage done by physical attacks by 80%. Your attacks consume 1% of your mana, reduce the target magic resistance by 15 (Stacks up to 50% of the target Magic resistance) and deal 5% of your AP has damage.
You realize that an AP Jax would completely destroy everyone with an item like this?


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Gorignack

Junior Member

10-16-2009

hm my suggestion would be something like this

Tier 1
Null-Magic Mantle + Amplifying Tome goes into
Tier 2
Manuscript if Prediction
+30AP, +30M.Res
Passive: Each time your Champion uses an ability against another Champion your champion gain 1 Magic Penetration, Cap at %"thinking around 30", This effect has a 10sec CD

Add Catalyst with the Manuscript and u get

Grand Prism of Illusion
450Health, 425Mana, 50AP, 40M.Res
Passive:Each time your Champion uses an ability against another Champion your champion gain 1 Magic Penetration, Cap at %"thinking around 40-60", This effect has a 5sec CD

And maybe add this little effect to it if it ends up to weak,
Gain an additional * of magic penetration for every ** mana less then maximum your champion have
* 1 point or a % maybe"
** depending on how the function goes this would change
calculated with 60 from the other effect and a 1% per 200 mana "20% at 4000 mana" this would be equal to 12 penetration

the costs would be around a total of 3200 gold
All already existing materials 2160
Manuscript Recipie 440
Prism Recipie 600

the passive effect is mostly so u just cant burst out the penetration with a static Penetration item as most champions wont have more then around 60-100 magic resistence


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GreenWolf

Senior Member

10-16-2009

Greenwolf's bite / *insert name* / over powered item no. 1
*chomp*

15% mrp.
If the champion's mana is below 35% magic resistance is completely ignored :O or maybe just 30%.......

1500g

I was bored :P


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JayceJa

Member

10-17-2009

i think for a lower tier item, something very cheap giving a good ammount of mana and some spell penetration, it would be good for its cost because it doesn't provide any straight up offensive stats, mana is only really useful if you have strong spells and AP to use it, and magic penetration isn't too useful unless the enemy has spell resistance, so the item would provide quite a strong counter to magic resistance in the early and mid game, but late game becomes less effective because it takes an inventory slot that could be used on a late game item

Warlock's Monocle(900)
saphire crystal + recipe

grants 500 mana and 25 spell penetration

then as a late game item, it would gain more useful stats and turn the magic resistance into a % based unique passive

JayceJa's Spyglass of Reversal(3310)(or just JayceJa's Spyglass, or just Spyglass of Reversal)
Warlock's Monocle+Spirit Visage+Blasting Rod+recipe

grants 500 mana, 40 magic resistance, 40 health per 5 seconds, 50 ability power
unique passive: reduces cooldowns by 15%, Spells penetrate 30% of magic resistance and restore that amount in health and mana, internal cooldown of 2 seconds

if someone has 100 magic resistance your spells would ignore 30 magic resistance and heal you for 30 health and mana

the spyglass gives you offensive power as well as defensive power with its stats, and the ability reflects it, as well as using a good early game item in spirit visage, but turning it away from its primary use on tanks, much like how codex was a caster item added to a composite item, increasing not only the frequency of its use, but the variety of people using it


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Bait

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Senior Member

10-18-2009

i think the real issue late game is when they the opponents stack magic resist. so a % reduction might be a better idea, similar to last whisper.

Radiant Scepter: 500
Sapphire Crystal 400 + Blasting Wand 860 + Ruby Crystal 475
Total = 2235

Grants 215 mana, 215 health, 40 ap, unique passive: 40% magic resist penetration


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IEatBabies

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Senior Member

10-19-2009

Wow this going to be long.

Ok start with things we know and then try to find what we don't know, namely the items we are looking for.

Magic Pen does not increase magic damage.
Your abilities do flat damage + AP bonus (in most cases). When people have MR they are negating a % of your original damage. If I read it correctly, 100 MR functions the same as 100 AR in that you will be taking 50% less damage from abilities. More MR decrease spell damage further at exponentially decreasing returns. Magic Pen serves to keep the potency that you already have.


The problems posed to us were:

1) the ease at which Magic Resist counters Mage champions
2) the wider proliferation of armor penetration and armor reduction.
3) try to hit a stat combo that doesn't exist, but would still be very useful

The assumed problem that the posters so far seem to address is that HP + MR = Hard to counter for a spell caster. Tanks specifically, but I honestly think health stacking and MR is a great combo.

The Banshee's Veil and the Aegis of the Legion both offer HP + MR. BV seems to get a lot more use than AotL because people are selfish and think of themselves more than their teammates. BV also functions like an auto-cleanse in that it hopefully negates not just a spell, but a combination of spells that require the first spell to go off in order to setup a more devastating effect. Example are against Evelyn to negate her stun that leads into rupture and QQQQ or against Rammus to avoid his powerball> taunt > defensive curl / tremors.

I see AotL pop up when I play with PMs and against PMs. When people start organizing themselves in teams rather than units, AotL becomes much more attractive, especially on a support.

Currently, the Abyssal Scepter counters the AotL much better than the BV because they are both Auras and it can account for 1/2 of the MR given. The AS does nothing against the BV's additional effect. It also leaves the character with at least 70 MR because champs start with at least 30. In game, if you aren't prepared to counter a BV with talents, runes, exhaust, or character abilities, you can't do much about it. 400 gold gets the champion an additional 25 MR and that pretty cheap considering that a BV isn't that expensive for what it gives you. If the person also want to get a Force of Nature you can expect that you won't be doing much magic damage to them for the rest of the game as a caster. Their HP will steadily refill as your magics do less and less damage with each additional piece of MR that they could tack on.

There are 4 items that give decent MR and are quite useful. Mercury Threads are a tad pricey, but offer protection against 19 champion's slow and anyone using Rylai's or Frozen Mallet. It's also part of your boots so it doesn't take up an additional slot. Guardian Angel is useful mid to late game and gives the target 1/2 their health and mana upon death. For a mage, this item can be a nightmare 1 v 1. The mage uses their Ult to kill a champion that is OOM. Any damage from their Ult that went past their targets death is nullified and their opponent gets up with 1/2 their mana restored to fight back or get away. The Chalice of Harmony is used by a lot of non-casters because it keeps their MP going much longer than most items in the game can. It is a great item to get as your first or second item. The Spirit Visage acts like the the poor man's FoN. Magic resist, HP regen, and it is 1 of 2 cooldown items that doesn't involve any kind of mana for those that use it or don't want it (vs Veigar...a mage).

All of these items contain either 35 or 40 MR. At least one of these items is desirable for any hero in the game. If you get 2 of them you have between 70-80 MR. Any desirable mid tier item made would have to negate at least 30 MR. If the character doesn't have any + MR items then a mage can be happy that they are hitting at full potency and negating all the other character's innate MR. If the number has to be reduce further for balance, I don't care. It's just what I came up with.

Making the mid-tier MPen item attractive to a mage is a problem. LoL is attempting to be a balanced game that also allows flexibility when building your champions so that they can emulate your play style and be modified easily, in game, to adjust to your allies and opponents. If you make the MPen stackable, which I believe is the point considering you can stack MR, you can't put a ton of AP on it. I mean really, why wouldn't you stack Brutilzers on Kayle? They win games! http://beta.leagueoflegends.com/boar...ad.php?t=16131 .

To avoid that situation I would look at Brutalizer as a model for what to aim for. The Brutalizer is cheap. As cheap as 3 out of the 4 MR items listed above. It gives a little bit of damage, some stackable pen, and a useful support stat that is greatly needed for the characters that would want a Brutalizer. Having 2 Brutalizers is completely viable if you are looking for cooldowns to support a melee.

You only get 15 AR Pen from a Brutilizer and I'm suggesting getting twice as much MPen for about the same cost, which seems broken. I would like to point out that AR Pen works with AS, Crit (and thus the effects can be doubled or even tripled), and doesn't cost mana. To get MPen to work you have to spend mana, it only interacts with AP in damage spells, and it can only enhance damage up to a finite point.

I'm completely Ok with the first item in the recipe being the Amplifying Tome. The Blasting Wand combines into 8 items while the Amplifying Tome only directly goes into 6. Upgrading Kage's Lucky pick would be an easy fix, though possibly lack luster.

Kage's Soul Pick
20 AP (5 less than the previous version because it's going into MPen)
5 gold per minion kill (less money overall, but you get a better item)
30 MPen

435 + 330 + 540 = 1305 Gold

If you want more gold and slightly more AP you keep the pick. If they start stacking MR you can choose to upgrade, costing you money over the course of the game, but getting you a better item.

Gold is nice, but what other stat combos can we go for that are useful to casters? Cooldowns are all over mana items so I'm avoiding that for the time being. How about health or health regen? The problem with those pesky tanks is that they have too much vitality and don't go down easy. Why not make it so you last a little bit longer? I'm sure there aren't too many mages that are really going to complain about some extra padding. The Ruby Crystal and Regrowth Pendant are great early game and both conveniently cost 475 Gold.

Arcane Shard
20 AP
225~250 Health or 18~20 H/5
30 MPen

435 + 475 + 470 = 1385 Gold

Another idea is a further delve into anti-tank magic items.

Not a Reworked Deathfire Grasp
20 AP
On Spell Hit: Target takes 5% of their current Health in Magic Damage (6 sec global CD)
30 MPen

435 + 1200 = 1635 Gold

I never understood why the Deathfire grasp was an AOE effect. It makes more sense for it to be on hit like Rylai's. The on hits would stack, but % could be adjusted so that it wouldn't be OP. The damage that they would take would be Magic so if they still have more MR than you have MPen then it's still not hitting them for the full %s. Also, the % should only be scary for people with lots of health and it will hit for less as the target has less health. % damage works great for Warwick against tanks. This wouldn't be anywhere as potent as what he has.


For the uber items I like what was done with the Nashor's and Trinity. Took something that was already there and made it work for someone else. Expanding already good items is smart, because it gives us more choices without more mess to sort through to find it.

There are a couple of items that could use extra uses. Others I never see used at all.
The most obvious piece to work off would be the Tear of the Goddess. It gives a lot of mana. It has a good passive that could work for something besides the Archangel's Staff.

Atma's Penetrator

Chain Mail + Tear of the Goddess + Blasting Wand

40 AP
70 AR
+350 Mana +15 Mana Regen per 5 sec UNIQUE Passive: Each time your Champion uses an Ability their Maximum Mana will increase by 4 Mana, up to a maximum of twice in a six second period; bonuses cap at +600 Mana. 1.5% of Champions max mana is used to Penetrate their enemies MR. The amount of additional mana spent determines what % MR is Penetrated. Atma's effects don't stack with Tear of the Goddess or Archangel's Staff.

700 + 980 + 860 + 1260 = 3,800 Gold

The TotG is the cheapest way to raise your max mana. Sage's Rings by contrast are very expensive. So long as you can't have a TotG and AaS as well in their inventory counting as extra mana it would be very hard to push this past 50 or 60%. On top of that all of their spells cost extra mana to achieve their effect.


Combining either the Malady or Executioner's Calling with a Blasting Wand would be another way to get some extra use out of items.

With the EC you convert the crit chance to CD. The life steal now returns 10% of the magic damage dealt as health and 5% as mana. The passive changes to on spell hit the target loses any positive status and spells penetrate 40% of MR is added on. Add AP as necessary.

The Malady would be interesting if its effects applied to abilities instead of physical attack. Make the scale larger for the additional magic damage and the duration of the debuff longer. Play with DOT or AOE characters like Teemo, Morgana, or Nasus and watch the magic damage they take from FF skyrocket.

I'm aware I'm getting sleepy because those last 2 aren't anywhere as organized as the rest of the post so I'm going to call it a morning and get some sleep. I'd swear that you could push people into the negative for MR, but I'm using what I think I know. If you know more than me about MR, or anything in this game for that matter, please do tell me. I'm aware how long this post is and how many flames I'm going to get so please at least flame with good information so that myself and others can try to help make the game better.


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dreamenddischarger

Member

10-19-2009

Staff of Razing:
Amplifying Tome 435
Blasting Wand 860
Null Magic Mantle 400
Combine Cost 305

+70 Ability Power
+30 Magic Resistance
UNIQUE PASSIVE: Your spells pierce 20 of your opponent's magic resistance.


Obliteration Staff:
Staff of Razing 2000
Blasting Wand 860
Combine cost 1140

+125 Ability Power
+40 Magic Resistance
UNIQUE PASSIVE: Each of your spells pierce 20 of your opponent's magic resistance, stacks 7 times.


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Stumpster

Adjudicator

10-19-2009

Magic Inverter (Mid-Tier)

Blasting Wand (860) +
Sapphire Crystal (400) +
Recipe (450) = Total Cost (1710)

+ 45 AP
+ 300 Mana

UNIQUE PASSIVE: Your spells ignore 20% of the target's magic resistance. Ignored magic resistance is turned into bonus AP.


As an example, if you hit someone with 100 magic resist you'd ignore 20 magic resistance and gain 20 AP for that spell against that target.